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Corgan blames “expectation level” for material going unreleased 2:01 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

Posted by jjb in billy corgan, interview, teargarden by kaleidyscope.

Smashing Pumpkins friend blog Crestfallen.com today put a moderately hard-hitting question to band archivist-in-chief Billy Corgan, asking Corgan how much non-album material from the ongoing Teargarden by Kaleidyscope project will be let out for fans to hear “sooner rather than later.” His response:

There are, I believe, over 70 demos of released and unreleased songs. At least 15 of which are worth a release at some point that have Mark Tulin playing bass and Mikey playing drums. Still trying to figure out what to do with those. I would release way more stuff right now (like we used to) if the expectation level for the quality of material was anywhere near reality.


1. Misery - 2:08 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

I read that as saying he didn’t think the demos/other tracks were ready for release, but w/e I suck at everything

2. Just_Erick - 2:33 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

Wel I read that as being realistic. I made a post about this on Crestfallen but as much as I want to listen to those demos, people will probably bash the songs more than actually appreciate them.

3. scott chambers (@scottythe1nonly) - 3:24 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

I don’t know. I wonder if there aren’t some real gems in that stash. Live versions of all the TBK tunes have usually been pretty good. a lot of people felt that the studio treatment of those first dozen or so songs didn’t do them justice. Look at Owata, a song that sounded pretty good live but got trashed once the official recorded version went online. Not because the song is bad, but because of the production treatment it got, namely replacing Jeff’s guitar intro. The other thing about listening to demos like that is that fan expectations are different for that material. We’re typically more forgiving (i think, anyway) than we are for the “official” releases. We expect that they’ll be a little rough, and the rough edges are more appreciated.

4. Drevpile - 3:33 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

lol. Dear Billy, I really don’t think my expectations, for the quality of your new music, could actually be any lower.

5. Graves - 4:11 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

There’s no incentive for Corgan to release this stuff because we have ‘fans’ like drevpile who just have to shit on everything.

6. Evelyn - 4:56 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

Look, with every hand there are Douche bags. I found Drevpile’s amusing because in the end its his opinion let’s be honest, his statement rings true with the material that has been released from the studio. Like Scott Chambers said, a lot of the reason people don’t like or complain about TGBK is because of the studio treatment the songs that were played under the band names SITS or Backwards Clock Society receive. The bootlegs, demos of these songs sound drastically different then what we pay for and I find it true for me that the demos and live versions of these songs are more powerful then the end result of Billy and crew working and over working these new songs. I for one want and hope that these demos end up being leaked or released because like all the other demos out there, the moon demos, mashed potatoes, all the demos associated with billy are always received with open arms. True?

7. Drevpile - 5:07 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

I love SPRC, Graves.

8. Johnny - 5:18 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

Billy’s comment isnt in regards to demos, I don’t think. I think it’s expectation of the new songs. For whatever reason, every TBK song is supposed to be (insert SP pet-song here), and if it’s not then Billy sucks.

More from a PR standpoint, it’s probably wise to hold off on releasing a bunch of demos that many fans purport to like better, as demo versions could add fuel to potential song-fires. He probably would like the official versions to get a fair shake first.

9. Just_Erick - 6:11 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

+1 Johnny, thats exactly what I thought as well.

10. zanzabar - 6:26 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

“loving SPRC” doesn’t disqualify you as a douchebag

11. JCelsius - 6:56 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

It’s interesting. Sort of a cryptic way of saying what he wanted to. It seems like he’s admitting that these songs aren’t going to be exactly amazing and a lot of SP fans are of the mind that, if the song isn’t a new “Soma” or “Set the Ray to Jerry” it’s complete and utter shit. (There’s just no middle ground for some people.) I don’t blame him because honestly, unless Oceania is the best album he’s ever made, a lot of “fans” will call it the worst. I always wonder why people who harbor such pessimistic views of the band today keep up with it so closely. If I didn’t like the music being released, I would just listen to the other hundreds of tracks already out there.

12. skullivan - 8:13 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

You could just as easily take it to mean songs like As Rome Burns, that some fans have deified beyond reason, being seen as disappointments if released in demo form. He was hardly clear on what the expectation level should be. Among those unreleased demos are obviously the infamous “A” songs that have been discussed ad nauseum. Billy set the expectations for that stuff through the roof to begin with.

They can’t really put demos up for sale when they’re giving the finished songs away for free. Either leak them out to fans (like they used to) or just put them out here and there through the SPRC. Isn’t that what it’s there for? Pumpkins fans have more experience with demos than fans of arguably any other band. I can’t recall ever hearing someone say “Methusela sucks!” or “Lover was better when Billy did it live in 1997!” They are what they are. If they’re releasing demos of stuff that is never going to get recorded anyway, I don’t see the problem.

Other options are doing a limited vinyl release (which he has recently talked about as a possibility for archive material) or including this stuff with the final TbK box set if and when that happens.

13. zanzabar - 8:17 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

fully agreed

14. Johnny - 8:19 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011

@skullivan But I think he could be concerned about the attention he’ll draw if fans prefer the demos to the studio material, same songs or no. I don’t think he wants to feed into the concept that the songs “were better live”. He clearly doesn’t feel that way, or he wouldn’t have changed them.

15. drevpile - 3:12 am // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

I thought fans who called other fans names, simply because they dont agree with their opinion, didn’t frequent here. My mistake.

16. arpeggi - 5:10 am // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

I personally don’t have my expectations high because, you know, owata, wwmm, spangled, zen baby ecc..ecc.. were all butchered in studio and great songs were left out, on purpose.. (and with Z. I felt the same) (not to talk about zwan!) so I don’t see how this eight-year trend could change for O.
Don’t call me fan if you want, but I really can’t appracete the music in the way he wants to produce it as much as I absolutely love his songwriting.
don’t kow if it makes sense (who cares) but I really fear that O will be his last big chance with many people

17. skullivan - 11:49 am // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

@johnny That’s a possibility too, but I think this whole question revolves more around stuff we haven’t heard recordings of yet. He’s got enough unreleased material that he doesn’t have to release demos of the album tracks if he’s concerned about it.

18. Misery - 12:43 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

hey guyz stop bein d-bagz, yo.
Nobody who’s followed SP through TbK, or even Zeitgeist is gonna quit on the band if Oceania doesn’t meet their expectations.

19. afk - 1:28 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

You’ve got to understand drevpile, when you say you openly dislike what the band is doing and think they are failures, and that “Billy couldn’t get any lower,” it seems reasonable to think you are a troll. That’s where the reactions came from. Why you would call yourself a fan at this point is beyond me.

Oh, and I am Misery. Strikes one and two. But I have a reasonable expectation that Oceania is going to kick ass based on the two songs I have heard and the knowledge that it is going to be guitar based.

20. Drevpile - 2:19 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

Just because Van Gough is dead, doesn’t make me dislike his work. I’m a fan of band – the band that made Gish, SD, MCIS…. that band no longer exists, granted – but their work does – hence i’m still a fan. Don’t get upset if I don’t like what is now being produced under the brand in the same canon. However, I don’t expect Billy’s fans to shoulder that reality; especially when Billy himself struggles to reconcile the old with the new.

21. is he one? - 2:31 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

^Question is: why are you here, commenting so often? This blog is mostly dedicated to new SP, to current events.

22. Drevpile - 3:22 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

Is he one, et al. Some weird compulsion to self harm? Habit? Current events being the archives – you mean? May be I just find it extremely amusing that people keep going on at me for not sucking Jar Jar’s dick, just because I think Empire’ is awesome?

Perhaps, just perhaps… believing that the kernel of hope I have for the new band, grows into something a little more; perhaps I keep checking to see if Billy has made something I like. It’s not that unreasonable to assume he may have – considering the affinity I have for much of his other work is it? But, no, you’re probably right – at this juncture, I should give up on that.

23. Misery - 3:59 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011


24. JCelsius - 4:12 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

@Drevpile If you have a kernel of hope, it really does not show in your comments. I think the question is, why do you keep up with the current iteration of the Pumpkins to the level you do? I mean, if you don’t have high expectations for the new album, but still want to listen to it, then do just that. You know relatively when it will be released. Check back in November. Until then, go and listen to all the tried and true Pumpkins songs you know you like.

25. Drevpile - 4:31 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011


I’m just interested in how this ‘iteration’s’ [actions] impact on the original SP; How the ‘replica’ can impact on the [essence] of the ‘original’.

Here’s a couple of starters for 10; http://www2.cddc.vt.edu/marxists/reference/subject/philosophy/works/ge/benjamin.htm http://www.tate.org.uk/research/tateresearch/tatepapers/07autumn/

26. colquittbrett - 7:44 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

Nobody likes what’s new until there is something newer to not like. By the time that happens, the old thing seems good and is praised. I wouldn’t be surprised to see people start hailing Zeitgeist when Oceania drops. And if Billy ever puts anything else out, people will look to Oceania as a great record. It happens with all art. This sort of thing happens a lot with videogames too.

27. Just_Erick - 10:46 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

I always liked Zeitgeist; Stellar, 7 Shades, Bleeding the Orchid, Tarantula, Neverlost, (and to some extent) Thats the way, are really stellar …And lots of other people thoughts so as well… It was the best selling rock record for like 3 weeks in a row, and spawned a number 1 rock hit with Tarantula and received warm reviews (which were over all more positive than Machina)

It was negativity more than anything which destroyed that album along with drama…And I am not just talking about the fans.

But again, Billy has that bad habit of “crying wolf.” He over hypes stuff then prior to release retracts those statements and sugarcoats things to make the criticism less damaging.

28. Just_Erick - 10:46 pm // Tuesday, September 27, 2011

No pun intended with the Stellar statement. Just caught that now ha ha

29. captain corgan - 1:58 pm // Wednesday, September 28, 2011

@Drevpile – I agree with you fully. The star wars metaphor is spot on! cheers from another who still hangs onto that smallest kernel of hope.

30. rapapapa - 3:48 pm // Wednesday, September 28, 2011

hey, I’m out of date about the star wars thing.. Could you please tell me, what were the worst things on SW remastered films?

31. captain corgan - 4:47 pm // Wednesday, September 28, 2011

Oh no… trying not to be pessimistic, but let’s all hope and pray that the Billy remasters fare better than the George remasters. I can just hear the hoards of fans (myself likely included) who will be mad at something he touched and changed.

32. Le Bon Cluck One - 1:29 pm // Thursday, September 29, 2011

Ok James Iha James Iha James Iha let’s finally get that conversation going because we all know deep down we want to turn this into a James Iha fight.

33. Drevpile - 5:18 pm // Tuesday, October 4, 2011

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