Pumpkins seeking “that sense that something is happening again” 11:13 pm // Monday, September 26, 2011
Posted by susan in billy corgan, interview, news, oceania.trackback
Gary Graff of Billboard has conducted a new interview with Smashing Pumpkins songwriter Billy Corgan. Corgan describes the sound of the Pumpkins’ upcoming LP Oceania (“melodic” but “rocks pretty hard”) and revisits the notion that this is a make-or-break time for the band. Here are two excerpts.
On trying to reach a larger audience:
“I reached a point where I saw that the one-song-at-a-time idea had maxed itself out. I just saw we weren’t getting the penetration in to everybody that I would have hoped. I mean, we have 1.3 million followers on our Facebook page, right? So you think you put (a song) up and 1.3 million people are gonna see it — but only if they’re looking at the exact moment it goes up. They’re not necessarily searching and they’re friends aren’t necessarily going to tell them about it. It’s very mercurial. I just saw that we weren’t reaching the sort of casual person who still gets their information from traditional sources. So I thought, ‘What do I need to do?’ and then I thought, ‘OK, I’ll go back to making an album.’”
On the future of the Smashing Pumpkins:
“We feel pretty confident this is going to help make the progression of ‘Teargarden’ make sense to people. If we’re able to get that sense that something is happening again and get people to rally behind us a bit, I think the next three, four years will be very interesting for the band. I think if (‘Oceania’) basically hits the same wall a lot of the other stuff has hit, we’re going to have to step back and really evaluate where we’re going, because it’s a tremendous amount of energy to put out to just feel like you’re throwing a pebble in the ocean.”
(this is the last one, and I promise to not be contentious, at least for today:)
But why I would embarass myself linking the owata video to my friend? is he serious? To me it’s clear that the music is the most important thing. If they don’t reach people is (also) because music isn’t as interesting. (my opinion, my musical taste) But if Foo Fighters can reach a huge audience and Teargarden can’t there are some clear music reasons. it’s not a “mercurial” thing at all.
(and does Teargarden really have a sense? I mean some random spare songs since 2009, is that the meaning that peaople can’t get?)
bah
But the Foos M.O. is also way different than the Pumpkins–always has been. The Foos are just chill bros rockin’ out and smirking at shit. The Pumpkins have always been an arty, daresay pretentious band with grand ambitions and concepts and whatnot. They’ve always walked that cathartic/embarrassing line. Two totally different sorts of bands who are gonna appeal to totally different core audiences. A lot of people are put off by the artiness/weirdness of the SP thing. I think I’m the only person in America who’d like to see Grohl and his “aw, shucks” macho dude hokum hit by a bus. (MAN, the Foos manage to be both boring AND obnoxious.)
What is the cause of the decline in the attention the recent SP output has got up to this day? Hm, it´s a complicated question to which finding a simple answer can prove quite difficult. One of the main reasons certainly is the controversial quality of the majority of the songs that´ve been released so far. Some of the fans like them no matter what, other fans bash them mercilessly, which certainly is indicative of something going on since we all can agree that we have the utmost love for the songs released between 1988 – 2000. It doesn´t prove with irrefutable definiteness that there is some kind of sentimentality about the past that ought to be viewed as the single cause of all the dispute. And the black and white mentality coming from certain people here on this website has always made me sick and weary. Another important cause may also be the change of general mentality. People got used to living in a world where they don´t have to think too hard, where everything they purportedly need is served on a silver platter. Why should the young generation bother with some band from the forgotten times of the 90´s when they were kids? Conformity rules the world now. If you don´t conform, you´ve got harder times then ever. People are lazy to think (generally speaking, of course) and to inspect their minds… and that´s what I have always done when listening to the Pumpkins and I bet most of you have too. Do you honestly think that Nevermind would be such a success today or that Siouxsie and the Banshees would attract so much attention they did back then? I don´t think so. The time has passed. There still are a few individuals longing for music they could consider artful according to their own taste and standarts without feeling ashamed for themselves, but the rest of world´s population? Oh, come on, don´t be too idealistic.
So, the point is if BC wants to break through, he really should start seriously considering the “mercurialism” strategy instead of rejecting it outright. Tell me, what else was it then pure monetarism when several editions of Zeitgeist came out each of them differing in only one bonus song? And now he´s turned his back on the music industry and wants to pursue the “road never taken”. Well, the road has been taken several times throughout the music history and some people did it with much more grandness and much more gracefully (remembering early PiL btw. 1978 – 1980?). They came up with the destruction of all traditional, took it as far as it could be taken and I can´t remember John Lydon ever complaining about not getting the attention he thought their music deserved. BC should really open his eyes, get rid of his ever changing attitudes, take one standpoint and stick to it at whatever cost. Does he want to be successful again? Does he want the media and people to take notice of the band and its work again or would he rather produce music for a much narrower audience and do without the publicity and thousands of people patting him on the back singing praise? I don´t think he cleared up the basic questions for himself… and as long as this internal conglict rages on, I am afraid the teargarden songs are not going to sound much better than they have so far. They will be just bland.
The only problem with the teargarden is inconsistent gap between the release of the songs! The waiting time and lack of information is really annoying and makes the public lose interest!
That’s a big ol’ pile of tl/dr, but I’ve gotta take issue with this…
“Conformity rules the world now. If you don´t conform, you´ve got harder times then ever.”
I kinda call baloney on this. The whole thrust of most US popular culture for a long time has been a celebration of individualism and non-conformity. Not being like everyone else is a major way stuff is sold to people.
I mean, consider Thomas Frank’s arguments in The Conquest of Cool and “Alternative to What?” “Rebellion” is the new normal–and its encouraged and profitable.
@Sad Navigator:
But That’s just marketing. We are supposed to not feel like erverbody else while buying chewing gum and cars and whatnot. If we all are so different just for the sake of it it makes us the same again.
In fact this kind of individualism ist just a lie. Our paths in this western culture are pretty predictable. Do we listen to this mainstream band that markets itself as Alternative or to another? Firefox ore Chrome? It doesnt matter.
I´m not from the states, so this is new to me. Not so surprising though. Would you call lady gaga non-conform? I would not. It´s pretentious, but false. I know a lot of people who are convinced that they are alternative and not part of the main stream, but i know it´s nothing but illusion. Teenagers who are into hip hop would also believe that they rebel against the system, their parents etc., not seeing that by this particular choice they are only empowering it. There were people/bands that really broke new territory with what they did and so many others followed in their wake seeing themselves as much innovative, which can be fairly disputable. When rebellion becomes profitable and encouraged, then it´s already lost it primal essence and become a tool. It happened to the whole punk movement as you all can surely remember.
I agree with Marek and Mako. The so called ‘non-comformity’ we see in the media today is just marketing and/or a misguided rebelling against the system in very thought out, deliberate ways along well-worn paths. If you are doing something just to get a rise out of the system or the conformists, then they are still controlling you. I think the only way to really be non-conformist is to do what you want for your own reasons. Sometimes that will fall in line with conformist society, sometimes that will run contrary, and sometimes that will result in something new.
I think Billy is trying to reach a population that isn’t ready to be reached. I don’t think the water is ready to boil over yet, but it is heating up. I don’t see any artists reaching any mass of people in any significant way these days. Bless Billy for trying so hard, but I think if the Beatles themselves came back today they’d have a hard time.
Yes, that was very well written jibernish. Trying to be outside the walls of the ruling system at all costs is not possible because well live in the society and we are affected by the way it works. It can´t be any other way, because otherwise we couldn´t exist. It is the freedom of thought that counts and the courage to question what you are served. The problem with BC is, I reckon, that he tries too hard and always gets frustrated when his work doesn´t break through, which doesn´t help his thing. Perhaps, if he were more relaxed and less worried, his output would benefit from it. It´s not only the trouble with the output moving forward so slowly. I admit freely that the majority of songs released from TbK hasn´t impressed me so far. I don´t consider myself a devoted fan any less because of that, I´m just worried and I´ve given some thought as to what may be behind it all.
* we all not well
ITT: lots of stuff that I cannot be arsed to sift through for meaning.
also;
>jibernish
This thread says something about the people the Pumpkins generally draw in as fans, having armchair discussions about psuedo-individualism and the conformist market, the perceived importance akin to a dissertation on the political climate of the Cold War. Music? What mu- oh that. Time to overanalyze that too.
Oh, really? And now it also says something about another kind of people that are attracted to this website, doesn´t it? People that are overtly hostile for even the slightest reason possible. Does that ring a bell, akf?
Obviously its not these discussions that gets us to this site every day. What’s so wrong about reflecting the climate this music is released into? I don’t want to pretend this music happens in a vaccum.
That’s also the reason I find it important to have news about other big rock bands from the 90s posted on HU. Bands like Radiohead, R.E.M., etc. are Billys peers and to understand the situation in Pumpkinland it helps to know a bit about their paths.
And by the way: Some bands still effortlessly connect to mass audiances. I don’t know about the Beatles but Metallica, Foo Fighters and others do. For different reasons.
@Mako
Metal is for children and children are a large audience. Foo Fighters make funny music videos, so appeal to tweenagers. Beatles were a pop-band so the same rules don’t apply.
In the article, Billy talks about the audience his music is or isn’t reaching, so it makes sense for us to talk about that audience as well.
Wait..does this mean no more EPs forever and ever?! Oh nos! :O It’s like “no more albums part II”.
@Mako “Metal is for children”?
Kind of a bold statement considering how diverse a genre metal is, don’t you think?
@JCelsius
Metal… Diverse… lol
@misery- metal is for children and the Beatles were a ‘pop’ band? 2 of the most ridiculous statements I’ve ever heard. I don’t understand how anyone can call themselves a pumpkins fan and dismiss either, frankly.
@Ginger
Wait, are you saying the Beatles weren’t Pop? Are you actually serious? I don’t know what to laugh at more, the concept of them belonging to a different genre, or that you seriously believe that…
and prince doesnt rock or roll.
What is this thread even about anymore……
When I read that article,the big question I asked myself was; Dang, if Oceania does fail (in Billy’s eyes of course, or over all) then what the hell happens next?
He hinted that they might ditch the free songs every few month plan (and you can expect them getting a lots of crap for that) , and also mentioned that it was too much energy to make an album just to see if it will do well. If said failure occures, then what will it take for the band to be rekindled again?
@Just_Erick
It’s not as if Billy’s gonna stop making music, he’ll probably just do another tour or something. Failing that, he’ll probably go back to a label, maybe? dunno.
…or bury SP for good, considering he is able to make such a decision and make it permanent. Oceania will hopefully be good musically, but don´t expect high sales. Yes, I might be wrong right here. Also because it is not yet certain whether it will be sold as any regular record in the stores and on the internet or whether the band will decide to make it accessible without any charge. However, considering the possibility of regular distribution patterns, the sales might easily be lower that the sales of Zeitgeist (and there was some hype because it was the “reunion” record).
Dudes talking shit on Metal’s lack of originality need to go listen to some actual metal. There is a lot of stuff out there that is derivative. People love Lamb Of God, but that shit just sounds like the same old to me.
Then there are bands like Baroness who do something truly progressive with aggressive music. Go listen to Red Album or Blue Record and tell me that it isn’t a breath of fresh air. The Dillinger Escape Plan do things that are technically progressive and I still don’t understand how they make sense of the chaos they orchestrate. I’m more of a hardcore kid so a band like Converge, which takes the best parts of hardcore and shreds them.
If you don’t like aggressive music, fine, just shut up then. But to say there is no variance in the genre is just a foolish thing to say. Go listen to some shit.
Mastodon ^
Opeth^ etc, etc…
@colquittbrett I think Misery is either trolling OR doesn’t know much about music. Saying that the Beatles were a pop band is true, but saying that they were exclusively a pop band is wrong. They branched out and some of their albums are anything but the pop of their early career. To say that metal isn’t diverse is a completely different level of ignorance. Anyone who listens to Mastodon, Baroness, Judas Priest, Danzig, The Melvins, Electric Wizard, Tool, and even early Metallica and still thinks Metal isn’t diverse is kidding themselves.
If you don’t like metal and you like The Smashing Pumpkins, exactly what SP songs do you like? Meladori Magpie? Christmastime? Spangled? Metal is a part of the Pumpkins inherent sound. If you don’t think there’s any metal in the Pumpkins then you’re just deluding yourself as to what their songs are. XYU doesn’t have any metal in it at all, right?
As long as the Pumpkins are still making music and touring, nothing really matters. Makes me sad that Billy seems so disheartened in these interview snippets posted. It shouldnt be “make it or break it”. People want to hear Oceania.
I think there are a few reasons why the TBK release strategy never really caught on:
1. I don’t think anyone really expected to have one song a month but nearly two years into this project, not even a quarter of the 44 tracks have been made available. And inevitably, the strategy was going to wane over time–”Hey, there’s a free Smashing Pumpkins!” song is pretty cool to the casual audience at first. But that hype is not going to be maintained after 5 or 6 tracks. Especially because…
2. Look, I like Zeitgeist. I like American Gothic. I like “GLOW,” “FOL” and most of the TBK songs so far. But besides “Song for a Son” and “Freak” (both of which did get a solid amount of exposure), I haven’t heard anything from TBK that inspires me to tell friends, “You have to check this song out!” Most of them I’m just content to listen to once or twice on YouTube and then forget about. I’m not trying to look a gift horse in the mouth here–when the TBK box set is released, I will happily fork over the cash to own these songs and it will be worthwhile, but you can’t beat the free price tag when it comes to downloads. But this is the problem with essentially releasing 44 songs as singles. If you’re fairly indifferent to a song on an album, that’s a bummer but hey, there’s still 11 or 12 other songs. If you’re indifferent to something from TPK, there’s at least two months to go before the next song comes out. Two or three songs in a row that don’t absolutely blow you away, you’re bound to lose interest in the overall project.
3. What’s the deal with those crazy, overpriced, impractically-packaged EP sets? You know, the one that’s been sitting on the shelf of your local indie record store for the past year-and-a-half, and you have to wipe off the dust to see the price tag is still $49.99 for 5 songs? Although that’s totally worth it because it comes with a miniature replica of the Washington Monument that looks like somebody rolled it around in a pile of dog shit. Who are the ad-whizzers who came up with that one?
4. Despite what the media–and admittedly, sales–would suggest, albums are still the best way for a band to get buzz. (Well, barring breakups and reunions that is.) Tours only reach so much of the fanbase. Singles come and go, especially if you’re a rock act. That’s why I was really happy to hear about Oceania, which I’m very much looking forward to. I have no idea how well it will sell and what the Smashing Pumpkins mean to the general public nowadays. But a new set of 13 songs is going to get more attention than “Billy’s Bi-Monthly Free MP3 Club.”
So yeah, that’s my take.
@misery: i wouldn’t call the beatles a pop band. they did quite a few ‘pop’ songs, but i wouldn’t say they were exclusively a pop band; that’s simply lazy pigeon holing. and that was exactly my point; Metal and the Beatles exert an almost equal influence on the Pumpkins, so any true pumpkins fan should be able to appreciate both, and not sniffily dismiss them.
the “make or break” mentality is so fucking annoying
just keep making music
@Every1
Hard Rock. Smashing Pumpkins were never and probably never will be metal. At their heaviest, Pumpkins are Hard Rock. At their softest, they’re Electronica or Alt. Rock.
@Ginger
Excuse me? To appreciate an artist you don’t need to appreciate their influences, otherwise nobody would listen to music after the classical era. A true Pumpkins fan wouldn’t have to listen to any other artist to further their appreciation for the band & their music, as they should be able to withdraw whatever emotional response from what they have heard. That’s like saying you can’t like a band until you’ve heard their entire discography, or cannot be a fan of a genre until you’ve heard all of the earlier genres, so you can ‘get’ the sound.
Also, it’s not lazy pigeon-holing, it’s consensus.
@Zanzabar
It’s hardly a ‘break’ situation at all, it’s not as if he’s gonna run out of money, what with the re-releases coming out, and having a massive discography he can sell for advertisements if times get really tough.
Where was I overly hostile Marek? I was making a casual observation. I never attacked anybody (yet your response was to make snide insinuations about me- a little hypocritical, yes?) But to add bit of a barb to my original comment, I was merely pointing out there appears to be a correlation of overinflated egos with looking down on Billy’s work.
I wish people could just take a deep breath, step back a bit, and see that Billy is someone who loves to create drama around the music. He likes being provocative. He likes pissing people off. People give him a lot of shit for acting like a dick. I say he acts the way he does on purpose, it’s part of the whole “Billy Corgan” character.
That said, I share in the frustration that SP can’t just be a great band that caters to the fans. Billy’s “me against the world” angle is sewn into the fabric of the band and will always be there. SP won’t suddenly turn into Pearl Jam and just ‘cater to the base’, Billy wants to insert himself into larger conversations and stir up controversy.
In any case, it’s definitely the case that a lot of older people who were familiar with SP back in the day have grown so sick of Billy that it would take some really stellar music to win them back over. And, I hate to admit, Zeitgeist and TbK are not in that stratosphere. Here’s hoping that Oceania is quality enough to win over all the jaded 20- and 30-somethings out there. I don’t think SP has ever had a problem with younger fans, though…
@anth – But besides “Song for a Son” and “Freak”, I haven’t heard anything from TBK that inspires me to tell friends:
erm yeah – cos them two are gr8 innit. they are the worst songs on it. A rather weak 70s rock-fest and a good solid live song turned into fuzzy pop rubbish with an out of place sentiment. take them off and the album is quite good so far.
keep releasing songs like them and even the fans will stop listening soon.
just my opinion on the songs mind i like the rest.
I have a feeling oceania is gonna be good – it wont sound like anyone expects it to i’ll bet. Apart from Zeitgeist Billy has never done an album that doesnt fit/belong in the pumpkins history – odd styles and directions yes, but always quality songs.
Grove
@Grove
r u serus? Freak is the best song released from the entire TbK project so far. In order it’s (subjectively) (not including b-sides from vinyl releases):
Freak
Tom Tom
Stitch In Time
Fellowship
Lightning Strikes
Song for a Son
Astral Planes
Widow Wake My Mind
Owata
Spangled
@tony grove That’s fair I guess but “Freak” has easily been the best-received TBK song from what I can tell. I forgot about “Tom Tom” though, I liked that one a lot too.
@ Misery:
Before the flame war starts…. Let’s just say that we only post opinions, nothing else. Freak ist not the best song on TBK. You might think so, I do too. But that’s just a subjective thing. And obviously, Grove WAS serious, whatever he/she said.
^ I like when people rank the “best” songs from a project. So is that going to be adopted by others because of what YOU rank them as? What does “best” allude to (lyrics, melody, as a total song, etc.)?
Beyonce had one of the best videos of all time…
The best food ever is tacos. (although I don’t think many people would argue with that)
The best album is Oceania. The best guitar is a Fender. The best drumsets are a Tama. The best College Football team is Virginia Tech. The best band out right now is The Canary Promise. The best digital media devices are Apples. The best type of shoes are Adidas. The best album by Pink Floyd is Meddle…
@Misery, so thanks for letting everyone know the best songs on TbK!
@BigAl I don’t like metal and there are very few SP songs I don’t like.
You’ve just hit on the exact reason why it’s so hard for many SP fans to get along. Some like the hard stuff, some like the poppier stuff. Both are convinced that what they like is what defines the band.
What defines the band is their diversity. I love songs like XYU and White Spyder and Tales of a Scorched Earth but if that’s what all their songs sounded like we wouldn’t have 1979, With Every Light, This Time, Spaceboy, and scores of other decidedly non-metal songs.
You can’t possibly be familiar with the Pumpkins catalog to the point where you can use Meladori Magpie, Christmastime and even Spangled as examples and then say with a straight face that they are primarily a metal band. That’s just willfully ignoring at least half of it, meaning you don’t even buy into your own BS.
If you confuse peoples’ opinions with fact because they don’t preface each statement with “I believe” or “in my opinion” then you shouldn’t be participating in online discussions.*
*For those scratching their heads, this was an opinion.
@ Misery: @Anth:
yup – course i was serious – and it is just opinion. but i guess my point is that irrespective of what style billy goes for on an album many pumpkins songs have an amazing quality and individuality to them which makes you think that no-one else could have created something like that.
freak, SFAS (although good) do not have that quality for me. There are many quality tracks though on TbK. The one i do think has the quality mentioned above is Tom Tom – it’s a beautiful/heavy song with amazing tones and its own style so it sits alone as a great pumpkins song.
Also after many listens Fellowship grows and grows – and i think has classic qualities. it fits being on a soundtrack and does have a kind of TEITBITE feel in that way.
anyways bring on Oceania and let the discussions really begin – cant wait for the UK shows coming up!
Grove
OPINIONS: The second EP from Teargarden is really really good. The first EP catches up to you later as an earworm. Everything after has a bit of disaster inside. Lightning Strikes made me sort of throw up in my mouth. Owata is nice, but I so wish (like God & Country) that it would have stated this nice little folksy ballad.
I think OCEANIA is going to throw everyone for a loop… or at least that’s what I hope. I think this whole TbK project has been all about lowering expectations and now, with Oceania, everyone will be blown away at the quality of the work.
Or maybe it’ll be filled with frilly little psychedelic organ sounds and suck total dick. I AM HOPING THIS IS NOT THE CASE.
I like psychodelic organs…lol at us SP fans. We cannot all be happy :)
When I’m reading anything, unless it is supported by a peer reviewed scientific experiment, I take it as an opinion. Where do these people come from that think everything anyone says is anything BUT their opinion?
OK. I did say Meddle was the best Pink Floyd album. And I’m sticking to my guns. BUT, I’ve been listening to this live DSOTM from ’74 http://youtu.be/3aYt5Q0jd54. I really think this was the FIRST post Barrett Floyd album (or even the first album EVER by them) where they came together as a true band that wrote songs. The previous albums seemed more like jams (which were amazing), but this is the first album that REALLY has all 4 of them coming together as an unstoppable unit.
I bring this up, because it is slightly parallel to what’s going on with SP right now. Either “Oceania” is going to do it, or the next 4 will. Being in a band and following MANY bands’ timelines through the ages, I realize that it all TAKES TIME. Sure, some bands get lucky and automatically glue together fine – but some take a while (Floyd).
I don’t know if it’s because I listened to it so much in my teenage years, but studio DSOTM just got stale for me. The production, the predictability of subtle noises lost that “WOW” factor with me. It’s undeniably a great piece of work from a great band. BUT, I also have the unpopular opinion of not being a bit fan of “The Wall”. Live Wall is SLIGHTLY better, but I just don’t like the cheesy production by Ezrin. I don’t think I know of ANY Bob Ezrin records I enjoy. I think the last Janes Addiction record would have been much better without him as producer.
SO, if you have time check out this video of the live ’74 DSOTM. http://youtu.be/3aYt5Q0jd54
I love “Lightning Strikes”. Sheer propulsion. Don’t understand why that never got more traction with anybody….
Hey, @everyone
I said (subjectively) in my original post of ranking, so all y’all who just wanted a bit of my booty can put your paws away, k?
@colquittbrett
I too preferred the earlier versions of Owata, especially the Chris Isaak show one
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