HU Podcast #72: The Kaleidyscope Metaphor in Teargarden 9:18 pm // Wednesday, December 8, 2010
Posted by chris in podcast, teargarden by kaleidyscope.trackback
This week, HU reader Grant volunteered to come on the podcast and discuss some theories on how Billy Corgan has been incorporating ”kaleidyscope” imagery into how the Teargarden songs have been written and arranged. He uses the image to the right as a visual aid in the early part of the show.
Listen to the whole show (59:11)
(download)(iTunes)
Panelists
-Chris, Andrew, and Grant
Topics
-Grant reveals his position on Gossamer, a requirement of all special guests, and explains how the Teargarden songs evoke the imagery of a kaleidoscope. Plus, we speculate as to whether this information gives us any hints about whether other songs such as As Rome Burns will be included in the project. (18:57)
-A comparison of Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness and Teargarden Theme as album openers. What else do they have in common besides being instrumentals? (14:31)
-General Q&A with Grant. Is Billy’s current ukelele composition on par with his early piano work? Plus, a comparison of Tonight Tonight and The Fellowship as calls to join the band on a musical journey, including a possible explanation why the former is much more effective as a mainstream single. (18:08)
Song of the Week
-Tonight Tonight, Santiago, Chile; November 23, 2010
If anyone is planning on attending the KROQ Almost Acoustic Christmas and would be willing to either come on the next podcast or be interviewed for a short segment, please contact us.
UPDATE: Grant was kind enough to work up another graphic to illustrate the chord changes in Spangled (discussed in the podcast at 12:20).
Glad you guys are back on track with this podcast! I’m still listening to the current podcast but back to enjoying it thus far….Good work and thanks!
i dont even
(Grant, aka HU commenter Gv)
Gv FANTASTIC job mate. That podcast was probably one of my favorite ones ever. Its so amazing to here nothing but talk about music, and actual music structure, theory and concept. Wonderful indeed. Makes me seriously appreciate TBK even more.
[...] was a guest on the latest podcast by Smashing Pumpkins fan site Hipsters United. Click on the handy visual aid to hear my analysis [...]
[...] was a guest on the latest podcast by Smashing Pumpkins fan site Hipsters United. Click on the handy visual aid to hear my analysis [...]
I was always under the impression that throughout Billy’s career, he approached his concepts on the fundamental level, and very loosely so he could leave a lot to the imaginations of the fans.. Which is what we are witnessing here. The only time I feel he became literal on a deeper level was with the machina record.
This is a very interesting theory and concept, but I also feel it could be presented and argued with past SP work and production choices (soma, to sheila, tteor, procelina are a few of many examples).. SP production has always had a lot of depth to it (I’m still discovering things on the older records I had never noticed before). Zeitgeist didn’t have so much depth imo, it was pretty straight forward rock record.
You could apply this theory concept to a lot of other artists work, as well.. so imo I don’t necessarily buy that he is being conscious of the keliedyscope aesthetic in his music.. as it’s a somewhat basic concept that could easily be visualized with a ton of music (the whole trickling in and out effect).
KROQ posted the “program guide” for Saturday’s concert.. featuring Q&A with MIKE BYRNE!
(flip to page 7 if this link doesn’t get you there)
http://kroq.radio.com/2010/12/08/21st-annual-kroq-almost-acoustic-christmas-program-guide-2/#photo-7
they hit the stage at 10:45pm on Saturday
http://kroq.radio.com/2010/12/08/21st-annual-kroq-almost-acoustic-christmas-set-times/
(loud drunk guy from 2002/12/06 Zwan boot): KROQ DOT COM !!
I would be more willing to say that Billy is aware of what is happening in his work, than to say that Billy is aware of what he is doing.
Too bad BC didn’t listen to this podcast as opposed to the BS of the last one.
More podcasts like this please.
Thank you for the podcast(s)
Zen Baby & As Rome Burns ! \m/ record those beasts
@Adam: I asked Grant about this during the podcast. I think the specific example he made of A Song for a Son where the instruments don’t build on each other at all as the song goes on is a pretty compelling one. I’d have to go back and listen to studio To Sheila again to be sure, but I could swear that there is progressive instrument layering there that isn’t in SFAS.
Great podcast guys! I didn’t understand about half of it but I loved listening to your perspective Grant! Really hope Billy finds some time to check this one out.
@ Chris: I’d love to see a chart like this for “Spangled” too — that song seems to follow a similar production aesthetic, particularly with the piano chording (which I believe disappears entirely after :59, replaced with organ).
Very cool.
I would encourage everyone to hear the higher quality versions of these songs before making any final judgments on them, much much cleaner
@ddb: I can’t take credit for the chart, that was all Grant’s. I’d also like to see one for a non-Teargarden song for a comparison.
Thanks Grant! Great job.
Since I’ve already got the arrangement chart made up, I can run a few others through it and see how they look.
I’ve had similar thoughts about the thematic composition of MCIS vs Teragrgarden. What I think it comes down to is that the songs conveying the concept on MCIS flow more like scenes in a movie, whereas when TbK is said and done the songs in TbK might be more episodic. Where MCIS is more like a movie with scenes TbK is a long ass story with 44 self-contained chapters or episodes that represent specific points in The Fools journey to enlightenment.
@jjb: I don’t think you can have one without the other.
@chris: I know you asked him that, and I disagreed with the response. And no, there isn’t as much of a progressive build of instruments in sfas as there is in to sheila, but there is a bit of the trickling in and out effect going on in to sheila. Example, the band drops at the ‘lately i just cant seem to believe..’ verse, as a banjo comes in, not previously heard in the song. It’s also the first point in the song that you hear BC harmonizing a two part vocal harmony in thirds. That drops out and all you hear in the next verse is the acoustic guitar and a distant synth pad. .. etc etc etc. Soma could be another good example, but not as apparent because he’s using a lot of different guitar tones/sounds (50 in total was what I read) rather than the different types of instrumentation he uses in sfas.. but ultimately it still has the same kind of aesthetic effect. Like SFAS has different instruments and layers coming and going, some not returning, so does Soma with it’s variety of guitar textures and sounds.
The other thing, is that this concept only seems to hit on the production choices of the song. Production wise, it’s non repetitive, but harmonically, melodically and lyrically it holds the same idea throughout. It’s very repetitive, more so than lot of previous works (and this is something that has been argued before on this site). You don’t see a lot of repetition when looking into a kaleidyscope.. the visuals change as you move forward. It’s a highly improvised visual experience in a lot of ways.
So, I agree to an extent that the songs could have been arranged with kaleidyscope imagery in mind (though this could be argued for past works as well, as well as works from plenty of other artists), but I don’t think the actual songs were written with kaleidyscope imagery in mind.
I’d be interested in seeing a chart for Spangled as well, but I get the sense he wrote that song with the intent of knocking off the beatles more than he did trying to fit the visual aesthetic of a kaleidyscope.
@Adam: I’m willing to view it as a continuum. I think art that is suffused throughout with deliberation tends not to be that great. I’d characterize a sweet spot as initial deliberation coupled with seizure upon happy accidents (or, coincidences). Since I tend to like Billy’s work, I tend to believe he is ‘conscious’ of connections within his work, more than I think he plotted them all out before creating the work.
Right. And I believe those connections come from his inner vocabulary as a songwriter, guitarist, producer, etc etc.. which is why I feel this ‘theory’ can be applied to a lot of his past work.
This just got props on his facebook, btw.
well.. the graph did anyway.
Solid Podcast, much more substance than fluff. Topics were good and make for interesting conversation. Grant makes me wish I knew more about musical structure. Maybe I should go take a class on it.
I’ve made a chart for Spangled, illustrating its heavy chromaticism and evenly-timed chord changes.
(See the 12:20 mark in the podcast)
Anyone else notice that the first 4 chords of spangled are the same 4 chords of creep by radiohead in a sorta reverse order?
^ Mash-up in waiting.
[...] Analysis of the Smashing Pumpkins’ Teargarden by Kaleidyscope [...]