HU Podcast #59: Astral Planes and Record Store Day 9:38 pm // Monday, April 19, 2010
Posted by chris in podcast, teargarden by kaleidyscope.trackback
What a weekend it’s been for Smashing Pumpkins fans! We somehow found time to podcast in between ordering vinyl, watching YouTube videos, marveling at setlists, and enjoying new music.
Listen to the whole show (53:27)
(download)(iTunes)
This week’s topics:
Panelists
-Chris, Jason, Jill, and Andrew
-Astral Planes is released, and one of us really loves it. Jill and I make predictions about what the song will become, and we all rank the songs of the first EP. (8:14)
-Are Billy’s lyrics getting simpler? Billy seems to think so, do we agree? (14:42)
-Happy Record Store Day! Were we surprised by all the old songs played at Space 15 Twenty? Plus Baby, Mike’s drumming, and the retooling of Soot and Stars. (17:59)
-Surprise vinyl releases, Teargarden Theme, and the Pumpkins appearance on The Tonight Show. Is Widow Wake My Mind the right choice for their return to late-night TV? (7:48)
Song of the Week
-Baby, Los Angeles, CA April 17, 2010
Chris, back in podcast #13, you speculated as to whether the Pumpkins would ever play Tristessa again, and if they did, if they would ‘zazz it up.’ We now know the answer to your the first question. Now, I ask you – did we get the zazz?
“Plus Baby, Mike’s drumming” or “baby Mike’s drumming”?
@breathesgelatin: I’m holding out for better quality audio before I proclaim this the best sounding live version of Tristessa ever. It does seem like the muddy guitar sound problem that they had with it in the early 90′s was fixed, possibly due in part to the different venue acoustics.
@Chein: Nope, you had it right the first time :)
;)
Awesome! I have something to listen to will i work out! ;)
As far as Jay Leno and Billy being his “colleague”…well let’s just say that CONAN O’BRIEN WAS AT THE CHICAGO shows at the Chicago Theatre in 2008.
@breathesgelatin You pay better attention to our podcasts than we do, apparently. :)
Can we get some new people to discuss matters on these podcasts? Seriously. Or at least add someone into the mix who doesn’t feel the need to be an apologist for this man by over-intellectualizing mediocrity on a weekly basis.
Gish is a meaningless album lyrically with the exception of “I Am One”? 33 is a rare example of Billy writing lyrics to express something other than using words only for “effect” or song filler? Christ, who are these people and have they ever listened to the vast majority of the band’s catalog? It’s a sad attempt to justify lazy songwriting by smearing and misrepresenting the overwhelming majority of the band’s song history.
I’m not saying there should be someone who’s soul purpose is to totally bash everything Billy does without reason, but it would be nice to hear a voice that more closely represents the feelings of what has become a large portion of the fan-base at this point. And before anyone pipes up and says something like “if you don’t like it, why are you still a fan?,” I think I can speak for many who’s lives were greatly affected by Billy, still want to see him do great things but are completely disillusioned with the new material and with the exception of a few highlights here and there cannot find any redeeming value in the new direction.
The current level of criticism on these podcasts comes across in many ways like listening to a politician criticize his own party – somewhat concerned or disagreeable, but careful not to rock the boat too much.
their is NO audio. I was asking everyone because I could in line so I could try to get a SBD recording. so it sounds like we might be out of luck
can u take better audio from other videos to sync over your videos?
i dont think that the simple lyrics will be a trend. stuff like shadowland, tomtom, make it happen, and circular change seem to have somewhat more complex lyrics. circular change evokes a lot of imagery to me. oh and that Best Buy show was probably one of the best short shows i have heard.
Cyrus DID tweet that she liked 1979, anyways its very sad you didn’t ask someone to speak about the show segment. The show was excellent and Cyrus was seen to enter UOF after the show.. So she wasn’t there for it.
Billy was signing stuff for a good 10-15 mins as a line formed to get a signature. And oddly enough he said “Who needs an autograph” but didn’t want to take pictures.
Jeff, Mark, and Mike were all very available and willing to sign stuff too as people approached them.
Billy later ate w/ Linda Strawberry, her brother, Justin and the Kerry Brown Family at the burger place next door.
After they ate then Billy came out for about 5-10 mins to sign a few things. Namely my friend EP and my wifes poster.
Things I found out. Mike read the April Fools day post here. And he keeps losing his passport.
The art on the Limited 7″ EP’s was done by a friend of Corgan’s named Lauren.
Teargarden Theme was done by a producer in Chicago according to Kerry Brown.
Jeff is ALMOST done with his thesis
Billy was very happy with the show when we talked about the setlist. He had a lot of fun.. Not sure what he meant when he said “see you soon” as he left.
There was definitely a great vibe at the show. All of us (in the front at least) were having a great time. Not sad at all. :)
Monte, so you’re saying that if one of us had a CD-R, we’d probably have a SBD?
*rage*
that is exactly what i am saying. i am sad that my brother in law was not around to let me borrow his MD player.
so i was just watching leno to see if he even mentions SP, and the band wolfgang amadeus comes on and hes introducing them as hes holding their vinyl EP or whatever and says “this is the biggest CD ive ever seen”. he said the same thing last time SP was on with machina 2…weird
@saison94: Billy has said pretty much exactly what I said about Gish not having a lot of meaning, i.e., I wasn’t just making that up. Siamese Dream is where he opens up lyrically, obviously that album is full of ‘meaningful’ songs. MCIS is more retrospective and thus less heart-on-sleeve. Adore is “opaque”, “hard to reach”, his “least personal” album (all his words). Machina is playing with their image, not about what he’s ‘really feeling’ so much. And so forth.
I’ve got to say that despite all that happened in the past, I do agree with jjb a lot.
he’s also said many things on the contrary about those same records. he spills a lot of beans about what the adore songs are about in his confessions — > once upon a time, for martha song about his dealing with his mothers death, blank page about dealing with his divorce, even though yelena was against that idea, shame dealing with michael hutchences death, a friend of his and how it upset him the press sort of wrote him off as a has been when discussing the circumstances of his death, etc etc etc. all sounds pretty personal to me.. and to sheila is one of the most striking love songs he’s ever written, maybe i’m wrong in this assumption, but those lyrics had to come from some personal space within his heart. I think these quotes of ‘opaque’ ‘hard to reach’ etc come from his bitterness that the record didn’t sell well/become as popular as he’d hoped. Didn’t he also say that dealing with these issues (loss of mother, divorce, loss of jimmy/band) via these new songs nearly did his head in?
i don’t know, we can debate on gish all night, and mcis has quite a handful of heart on sleeve songs (something can be retrospective and heart on sleeve at the same time), but i’ve always viewed adore as his most personal album. Even Machina seems somewhat personal, but he’s hiding those personal emotions behind the metaphorical stage curtain.
Since when is it wise to take Billy at his word for anything, much less his song lyrics and what they mean, or whether they mean?
Adore wasn’t a “personal” album with songs like For Martha (obviously about his mother’s death), as well as Once Upon a Time, To Sheila (he’s claimed many times he was shaking when he recorded it, pretty odd sentiment if it wasn’t personal on some level). With his divorce and mother’s death it could be argued that consciously or subconsciously Adore is his MOST personal album. How could it not be in some way?
And in the Machina era he stated numerous times that the character he was playing and the songs/lyrics he wrote for those albums was a combination of who he really was and also playing on that image. So Machina songs were undoubtedly personal, even if it was in an arty way.
Either way, even if there are impersonal songs on the earlier ablums that doesn’t mean they’re meaningless or just “used for effect,” which is how we’re suddenly justifying the current output.
In the podcast you made it seem like the sudden shift to shallow, simpler lyrics used more for effect rather than real substance wasn’t a change so much as it has always been the norm, and that is just complete nonsense. Billy has his Chewing Gums in the back-catalog but those are certainly exceptions. What we are being treated to now lyrically and structurally with these songs is unprecedented for this brand.
@ Adam
I vaguely remember hearing Billy saying heartfelt things about Michael Hutchence. But the lyrics to Shame always made me think it was about Jimmy leaving (especially the “Hello, goodbye, you know you made us cry…” bit). Interesting, lyrics are always open to interpretation, I guess.
“What we are being treated to now lyrically and structurally with these songs is unprecedented for this brand.”
Oh, bullshit.
And it’s “affect,” for fuck’s sake.
@Chein: yeah I remember feeling this way too upon hearing Shame, and at the time jimmy leaving was still an open wound so the song seemed fitting.. even the title. then I read his story about hutchence.. maybe we as fans were relating the song to our own experience with SP at the time, but who knows he could have written the song about several things going on at the time.
So you’re trying to say that “Snail” is as simple lyrically and musically as the latest SP songs? Hmmm, not so sure you’ll find many honest people who’d agree with that, but maybe that’s just me.
It’s not really the simplicity of the lyrics that bother me in the new songs so much as it’s the repetitiveness and the lack of song development. Sure, Snail reflects the diary scribblings of a heart-on-sleeve grunge rocker in the 90s, but at least the lyrics sort of paint a picture.
hasn’t billy said snail was written as a tribute to the leader of another chicago band? can’t remember the name of the band, but it was a guitarist and drummer. guitarist put a bass pickup on his guitar to dial in the sound of a bass player as he played.. band started with an E?
anyway.. weird example for your point as snail seems like one of the more personal songs on the record. i always felt there was a meaning to what he was saying there, of course glossed over with some flowery lyrics at some points.. but there’s more of a story there than there is to ‘everone gather warm your soul x10′ and ‘widow wake my mind, i’m looking for a love that shines’ x10
Or “radio” x33, right? Or have we forgotten “I of the Mourning”?
I’m not the one making the impossibly strong claim of “unprecedented,” here, dudes. I can give you counterexamples all day. How about “Holiday”? LOL
Hah, when you don’t have much to come back with it’s always a nice retort to attempt a poke at someone’s grammar.
However, the joke is on you:
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-Affect-and-Effect-Properly
http://www.yourdictionary.com/grammar-rules/affect-effect-grammar.html
“Affect” is almost always used as a verb. If I’d said “to affect,” or something similar, you would’ve been right. Unfortunately for you, I was using “effect” as a noun (“for effect), which makes it proper.
A better example, taken from the second link:
“A particular impression: large windows that gave an EFFECT of spaciousness.”
So next time you try to condescend or appear smarter-than-thou maybe you should at least get your grammatical concepts straight?
Yes, but how many lyrics were uttered prior to or after each utterance of “Radio?”
LOL, take note, everyone: apparently every time you use the noun form of a word whose verb form is more common, you are making an error
The only one making impossibly strong claims here is the one who seems to think that the current approach to writing lyrics is something that’s always been par for the course with this guy.
I of the mourning at least has some other verses going on within it… i always interpreted it as his personal take on his interactions with his fan base. The examples i gave you, those are literally the only words of those two tunes!
Adam, they are literally not the only words in the songs. You are literally wrong. Or maybe I don’t know what the word means
That’s not what I was really implying at all, but nice try.
Face it, you got called.
here are the lyrics for i of the mourning:
Radio
Play my favourite song
Radio x33
I’m alone
Radio x1000
Please don’t go
Radio
I peer thru curtains on empty streets
Behind a wall of caller i.d.
No one’s out there
To hear if I care
About the troubles in the air
As I of the morning now come
Pick up where my thoughts left off
Cause I’m home to die on my own
As my radio
Plays my favourite song
Radio x33
Don’t you know
Radio x445
That radio
I’m alone
I blow the dust off my guitars
In the attic with the stars
I read your letters
To feel better
My tears upon the fading ink
As I of the morning now gone
Pick up where my thoughts left off
Cause I’m home to die on my own
As my radio
Plays my favourite song
radio rradiohead radio
I sit in the dark light
To wait for ghost night
To bring the past alive
To make a toast to life
Cause i have survived
What is it you want
What is it you want to change
What is it you want
What is it you want to change
What is it you want to change
Radio
widow: with bridge part then oh oh oh oh widow wake my mind im looking for a love that shines x 1000
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Widow wake my mind
Widow wake my mind
Widow wake my mind
Widow wake my mind
I’m looking for a love, a love that shines
That shines, a love that shines
To be mine, yes, all mine
A love that’s mine
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Widow wake my mind
Widow wake my mind
Are you real this time?
Widow wake my mind
I’m looking for a love that I can find
To be mine, a love that’s mine
It’ll shine, in my mind
A love that shines
Accept the grace, the moment you are in
Accept the chase of where we must begin
‘Cause when you crawl, you crawl into my heart
And when you fall, you fall right in my arms
We’ll shine, yes, we’ll shine
Our love will shine
You’ll be mine, yes, all mine
Our love will shine
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh
I’m looking for a love that I call mine
Shine, we’ll shine
Widow wake my mind
Shine, we’ll shine
Widow wake my mind
Shine, we’ll shine
We’ll shine…
Widow wake my mind
Shine, we’ll shine
We’ll shine…
Widow wake my mind
Shine, we’ll shine
We’ll shine…
Widow wake my mind
Shine, we’ll shine
We’ll shine…
Widow wake my mind
We’ll shine
@Saison94… The word “affect,” used as a noun, was something I said on the podcast. When you said “effect,” you were attempting to QUOTE ME. I am simply correcting your misquotation, not trying to deny you the right to use the word “effect,” haha
Lol that’s hilarious
Grammar insults aside, I really do feel you sort of painted yourself into a corner with this ridiculous argument on lyrical equivalence across eras. Pretty weak dude.
lol at widow lyrics. wasnt radio about him hearing god speak to him thru the radio? was that for real or just the story. cuz i could see him really being a schizophrenic
All right, I got a complaint about the image on that “French Movie Theme” video, which was a joke anyway. So I’ll go with this one instead ;)
I think “simplicity” is an overly used word, and not really that revealing in the context of its use here.
Sure, “Lily (My One and Only)” is simple in the sense that it’s not very difficult to follow narratively, and it uses plain language. But really, it’s a little more complex in it’s structure than I believe it’s getting credit for. It isn’t until halfway through the song where we realize that the narrator’s sighs of love and the sticky-sweet melody have fooled us into thinking that his intentions are more innocent and benign than they actually are. The music underscores the thought process of the narrator and it’s guileless arrangement adds irony to this story of a stalker. It’s filled with interesting characters, images, and story ideas.
To suggest that this lyric is “simple” in the same way that, say, “Astral Planes” might be, is misrepresentative. In this EP and this song especially, Billy is being reductive to the point of banality. We’re left with a couple of undercooked new-age lines without context, or inherent meaning. Lyrically, there is no sense of conflict, or development. The tune is okay, but how does it relate to its lyrics? There’s nothing especially mantra-like about its arrangement, if that was the direction he was going for lyrically. Why would those lyrics be matched with that angsty aggressive tune? I can’t even humor the idea of a hidden irony because the whole thing is so awfully earnest. So we’re left with drivel behind an okay tune.
I could point to older SP songs that fail lyrically but in those if felt like they didn’t work because he was trying too hard. In this case and other recent attempts it doesn’t feel like any effort was pitched into his songwriting at all.
@ StuckInVain
Great thoughts. I agree.
@stuckinvain
I agree–WWMM and Astral represent a lack of effort at all lyrically.
Don’t have time to go back to the podcast and hear what I said, but I didn’t mean to highlight Lily as a “simple” lyrical song, but rather the opposite of the chants contained in “Astral Planes.” It’s a “story song”…something we don’t get much from Billy anymore.
@MonteLDS: That’s too bad about the audio. Sounds like we need to plead with @studiodog to copy Billy’s recording when he isn’t around and post it to the LMA :) Thanks for the extra info about the aftershow.
And to everyone, if you go to a unique show (I think this one qualifies) and want to come on the podcast, even for a few minutes, and talk about it, use the contact form!
@Adam: Don’t think I didn’t notice that you included the word “radiohead” in your I of the Mourning lyrics. Haha.
Heh, some of the things stated in that podcast and feebly elaborated upon here in the comments section sure did die a slow death…
WHAT?! Gish has a deeper meaning in the lyrics…I guess you just aren’t deep enough to understand them songs :P
Go listen to Window Paine and think outside of the box-not an actual Window Pane :P think of yourself as a window looking inside full of pain(e) :P
just do it!
if people can’t relate to his lyrics they will be frustrated trying to find a connection.
Zeitgeist has deep lyrics..its not hard to understand where his mind is at…or maybe I am just kooky and weird too..
He us keeping it simple and I suppose some people can’t handle that simple right now :P
You should divide the songs up into the tarot…you can do a new blog about it! ooh an idea for you LOL
Um Baby is not better than the MAD songs and does not sound a thing like those. AD songs are in their own league
Mike Rocks-give him more time..we get to grow into Mike’s playing
Highlights of podcast
*nice mouth drumming
*Jilly and her rock song moments
*reading podcasts
Miley Cyrus will be the new flavor of the month LOLOL
Conspiracy…maybe the 250 EP’s that do not have a b-side to the vinyl were fucked up and we will get an actual b-side when we get the real release (I highly doubt it, but hey why not add a conspiracy)
WWMM is tv friendly!
*uh this week in Pumpkins history? Was there not any to post?
YES I HAVE TYPOS! I apologize :D
@apm
Sorry for misunderstanding. If what you said is the case then I agree!
Should I make some pun about playing The Fool?
I get goosebumps all over again listening to that “Bring the Light” from 2:50 on… so good. Was that the show we were up front for, Jason? Can you see me swooning in that video?
http://xkcd.com/326/
LOL, thank you Dystopic. <3 XKCD.
@reggaeluv2000: We haven’t done This Week in Pumpkins History in over a year now. We did it the first year of podcasting, but after that it would get kind of repetitive.
Going back to the lyric discussion, there’s a big difference between whether or not a song has meaning and whether or not the language used to convey the meaning is vivid, metaphorical, and full of imagery. I think Billy was talking more about the latter than the former when he made his “I’m writing simpler lyrics” comment.
And I know everyone has been using Widow and Astral Planes as examples, but look at A Song for a Son. I like this song a lot, Billy sings it with a lot of emotion and power, and it has more words than Widow or Astral Planes, but compare it to the imagery in the lyrics of Behold! the Night Mare.
It doesn’t mean that I think all the new songs are worse than all the old songs or that a song without poetic lyrics can’t be good, I just think this may be another reason why older fans who got hooked on the Pumpkins during the time when Billy was writing more abstract and flowery lyrics may not be able to relate to the newer songs that aren’t written that way as much as a fan who came in during Zeitgeist. The Zeitgeist fan will have different expectations for what a “great Billy Corgan song” is written like.
@Chris lol sweet thought that would have gone off the radar ;)
For all the simpletons who want to complain about the lyrics being so simple. You must be new to SP.
Ever heard of the song “French Movie Theme”
Wwmm is catchy b/c the lyrics are easy to recall.
french movie theme always seemed like a throw off as a joke song to me.. just there to be there. wasn’t put on anything official besides cherub rock uk single and one of the many awkward segments of vieuphoria. it wasn’t like anything he was about to perform on leno ya know..
For those that need a refresher on the lyrics to French Movie Theme, SPFC kindly lists them. Lol.
@chris
oops….I did always skip that part of the podcast anyways :D
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Teagarden+By+Kaleidyscope+Vol.+1%3A…+%5BEP%5D+%5B4/20%5D+-+CD/9832949.p?id=2088151&skuId=9832949&st=smashing%20pumpkins
anyone else notice that the “original release date” was “1910″ typo or interesting?
saison94,
If you were on the podcast, it would get unpleasant pretty quickly, judging by your comment up there. It’s not particularly useful to throw out terms like “better” and “mediocre” when discussing music.
For those who have not heard the Teargarden Theme yet….your wish is my command… Enjoy!
Thank you. Are you an insider?
No I just wanted to hear it so I thought I would do a youtube search and wallah! I like to share pumpkin stuff with pumpkins fans, that’s what the community spirit on HU is about right?
So here is another vid I would like to share for those who have not seen it yet, and it was created by me!! :) It’s pretty cool how one of the pics in my slide show is also on the top of this page! Enjoy!
And another great podcast guys but I can’t agree on Gish being that lyrically poor. The lyrics in crush and Bury Me are awesome. Plus heaps of Mellon Collie lyrics are more intriguing than 33. Just pick up the MC booklet and have a read when you next get a chance.
The band that installed a bass pickup on his guitar, and sent it to another amp, was Local H. They may not have been the first, or even the one you are referring to, but I do know that he did that, and they are from Chicago.
Just because a song has a refrain or “mantra” doesn’t demote it’s song status to demo, or unrefined. It is a pretty obvious fact that it’s easier for people to remember a song by a lyric that sticks out, or a refrain of the song title as the chorus (“Once Upon a Time”, “Today”). The way any writer’s muse hits him in usually in some sort of circle, and it’s not uncommon from many people to go through obscure references periods to tryign to always write hooks periods. He is probably trying to focus back in on things for people to hang their hats on, the problem of this is that there will be an equal (or at the least more vocal) amount of people who complain about how they think it’s too dumbed down. When I was 14 I hated it when bands repeated the same lyrics over and over again, or used the song title as the chorus, or sang “oh’s” instead of lyrics. But at this point, after years of experimenting with my own stuff, I understand more the reasons. I think it’s by far more of a challenge to write something meaningful/expressive with the least amount of words you can, then with a laundry list of avoiding what you are really trying to say. Also sometimes the music says what it means, and the vocal is merely another melody rather then a lyric. I know this seems basic, or could be taken as talking down to people, which is not my intention, simply just stating the process as it goes through my head. As for the song title stuff, years of people calling out “Rat in a Cage”, or “The Killer in Me” tell me that not everyone gets the chandelier has red lights, a matador uses a red cloth, the bull runs at said cloth, I’m going to name the song “Cow”, chain of events. That’s okay, the people who do get a different thing to hang our hats on.
I think the lyrics fit the songs, and if he used something other then a “mantra” on “Astral Planes” it would distract from the mood he is trying to create. If you don’t like the mood, that’s another subject, but personally I do like it, and think he achieved what he was going for. My only quibble with the song is that I think the drums are a little too quiet, but again I will judge the overall mix once I have the vinyl in hand, since it seems that is what he is mixing for.
I think the drum is voluntarily quiet in the verse of Astral Planes much to leave some space to the congas. It shows a good cohesion between Kerry and Mike if you ask me.
I just watched that “Bring the Light” video, good version even if it’s too fast. That reminded me of something I’ve been thinking a long time – Billy has sometimes championed songs that a more diehard fan would like more, but the general public not so much. I remember he said that he wanted “Jellybelly” to be the 1st single from MC, but the label told him that it was all about “Bullet with Butterfly Wings”. Now I will tell you that “Jellybelly” is without a doubt in my top 5 from MC, and top 10 all time, but I doubt that 15 years later we would hear it on the radio all the time, and a lot of casual fans would remember it as much. He was thinking of adding “Set the Ray to Jerry” to MC, but Flood said no. “Spaceboy” was one of his favorites then, because of the personal connection, but I still hear people hating on the song. He seems to really not what to let go of “That’s the Way” being a hit, even though locally, especially in LA “Bring the Light” got MUCH MORE attention (at least from what I’ve heard while down there), even more then “Tarantula” it seemed to me. I say this because I also remember when he said he wanted promoted a song from The Future Embrace, and the label wanted to promote another one. Personally, I think that a lot of the inner debate among the fans about him having lost his way, has a lot more to do with him trying to 2nd guess his fans/label/self/bandmates to the point where it all just got tangled up. The main reason I continue to follow his work the way I do, is because it seems he is starting to go back to the way it was in the end of Gish/SD era where he tried to do what HE wanted, while making the most hooky stuff he could at the same time. I’m not saying it’s at that level yet, but it feels like to me the threads are starting to loosen and untangle.
I know what you’re saying Bigpumpkins. Like I said, not damning the mix yet, just waiting to hear it on vinyl.
I can definitely say that mixing is one of the most frusrating/creative parts of the whole recording process, and sometimes 1 or 2db of volume is what seperates something from being distant or pronounced. It’s one of the reasons why people like Alan Moulder get the album after the band/producer has been recording it for 6 months or a year, and mixes it with “fresh ears”. I do really think all this stuff will sound awesome on the vinyl. I have gotten a lot more into figuring out the changes the digital products bring to the music lately, and that’s why I keep harping on it.
Im agree with you 100% about the choices of the singles, especially your point about “Jellybelly”.
If Billy liked this one so much, he should still play it instead of Bullet sometimes, haha. In my dreams. Also one of my favorite but I don’t think it would have made a good single.
Bring the light should have been the 3rd single off Zeitgeist.
I agree with the playing of it, and the single status BTL. Did you hear about the clinic where someone yelled “Jellybelly” to Jimmy when he asked for requests, and he said “you just want to hear the intro” then he played Geek all the way through. That was years ago, not recent.
On the whole topic of heart on sleeve/personal lyrics – I don’t think there are any songs they have ever released that Billy didn’t “feel” at some point or another. That’s just the way he works. How he disguises it is another thing.
Yeah, true. I remember Jimmy saying around 96 or 97 that he wouldn’t see himself playing Jellybelly at the age of 40. Maybe that’s why they didn’t play it since more than 12 years I think….
So now they can play it. Here’s at least one good thing about having a very young drummer aboard, haha.
Just kidding, I’m pretty sure Jimmy regretted saying that.
Scott Lucas and Local H are from Zion, not Chicago. :P
“my guitar effect pedals affect the sound coming from the amp.”
Funny to think that Billy playing Tristessa, Bury Me, Geek, Jellybelly, or Here is No Why could now actually piss some people off now. The times we live in…….
You are right Doug. I just looked that up. He was still the first IL person I saw do the bass pickup/octaver 2 man band thing though.
the only singles from ”Zeitgeist” are ”Tarantula” and ”That’s the Way (My Love Is)”?
No worries…I live in the northern burbs of Illinois, so I’m a little snobby about that. :)
i.e. Alkaline Trio is from McHenry, Chevelle is from Grayslake, Fall Out Boy is from Wilmette, etc…
the Fall Out Boys are not from IL. I will never acknowledge that they came from the same place as SP and the Cubs. Putting fingers in ears lalalallalalalala
Yes, “Bring the Light” like “Muzzle” and many others were not official singles, only “promo songs” as in the station get a 1 track CD with it, but no actual single is ever released. From what I heard KROQ started playing BTL right after Tarantula without the promo. I heard it many times on the station while driving through.
I didn’t say I approved… :)
I was wondering how long it would take someone to bring up French Movie Theme. It is, after all, in everyone’s top-5 favorite SP songs, right behind the geometrically-more-lyrically-complex Rubberman.
Astral Planes is awesome. It’s essentially an instrumental that happens to have some lyrics. I love the way his vocals fit with the music (and particularly the way you get just a slight whisper of Carina Round’s voice, most notable on the word “soul”), so it wouldn’t be the same without them. His voice is really just another instrument and it doesn’t even matter what he’s saying.
FWIW I don’t think there’s any argument that the songs so far are way simpler lyrically than pretty much anything Billy has ever done. They are. But to me they’re all great, I even like Widow in the context of the other songs. The lyrics should serve the song, not the other way around.
And once again, these are 4 tracks out of 44. They’ve run the gamut lyrically and sonically. There’s no reason to think that every song on the album is going be lyrically simple. That’s part of the drawback to releasing songs one at a time; everyone expects every song to be Thru the Eyes of Ruby or Soma.
I thought Linda Strawberry sang on Astral Planes?
Gv – Oh, you mean words that center around an actual opinion rather than a politically correct wankfest where we don’t want to offend anyone too much? Seriously, these podcasts are like the NPR of SP fandom – polite, tip-toey snoozefests with tons of unsupported and unchallenged claims like the one mentioned above about the lyrics.
Besides, I never said I wanted to be on the podcast. It’s just that in many ways, HU is in a unique position as being essentially the band’s official fan site/blog and at the same time completely maintaining its independence. Being in that special position, it’d be nice if there was a voice that more closely represented what has become a large portion of the current SP fanbase.
What’s not to love? You guys could all just gang up on them anyway. They could be like the perpetual thorn in the side of all your carefully formulated opinions. To use another political analogy, what you need is a Ron Paul, or a Dennis Kucinich, to throw into the mix that is the status quo ethos of HU podcasts. There needs to be someone who views things completely differently than you do.
Everybody rips on Nethphoria, and granted, they ask for it with many of their posts/threads. But it’s like you guys who are doing these podcasts are the leftovers of the old O-site mixed with a healthy dose of Sivaians – politely intelligent but constantly apologizing for and making tortured equivalency arguments to support the validity of the new material. And like it or not, that “generally supportive of every thing Billy does” demographic is only about half of the current fanbase. So there is a large bloc of people who read your site and still pay close attention to the band but whose voice are not presently represented in these discussions.
As awesome as HU is (and trust me, I genuinely appreciate what you guys do who run this site) it could be a lot more entertaining and enlightening as a fan to hear true debate going on within these podcasts.
I agree with the context of the EP- Astral Planes and Widow sound much better listened to in sequence with the other two songs, they make much more sense that way rather than indidually. After all, if Siamese Dream or Gish had been released by this method, at some point you’d have had Daydream, Sweet Sweet or Lilly out there on their own- I’m sure they would’ve attracted similar criticsm.
And I can’t really agree with the discussion about lyrics in this podcast- evry pumpkins lyric means something (some more than others obviously- french movie theme etc etc…) there’s plenty of meaning from Gish all the way through to Zeitgeist, and while the lyrics may be simpler so far on Teargarden, they’re saying plenty. Long may it continue.
I once thought that the lyric in Rhinoceros was:
“open your eyes to these mustard lies”
pretty disappointed when I found out it wasn’t…damn.
in my lame defense, that WAS before lyricsdepot.com existed.
@saison94 — How many of the podcasts have you heard? Did you miss me ripping BC a new one in the Rolling Stone article podcast? Or maybe the (one) time pins was on? Or pretty much any time we discussed the old SP.com site? We definitely have done quite a few podcasts where at least one of us is pretty pissed off. We just make jokes about it, too, because what’s the use of getting all riled up?
On a general note, I think it’s difficult to get people to spend their time lambasting something they don’t really even care that much about anymore. If someone asked me to be on a podcast about Beyonce, for example, I’d probably laugh and make an excuse about a more productive use of my time.
True debate will not be achieved by a former TSP fan snidely hashing it out with us; and while we usually remain positive (because we’re all friends and value each other’s company?!) I do think we are fair when someone dissents.
(HU #29-#59 on my external fwiw, Jill)
Isn’t Jason pissed off every week? :)
jillysp, I’d like to fu*k you.
dear me, that’s a bit forward, not too mention a bit creepy :S
Skullivan: “I don’t think there’s any argument that the songs so far are way simpler lyrically than pretty much anything Billy has ever done. They are.”
No, they are not “simpler…than pretty much anything Billy has ever done,” but they are maybe in the simplest quartile of the songs he’s written in his life. Astral Planes, which is one song, is one of the very simplest songs he’s written, but even it has a very few analogues from his past. Remember the Marked’s “Zieg Heil”? ;) And Skullivan is of course right on to point out that, were Astral Planes an instrumental, no one would be complaining; seen any complaints about the lyrics to Teargarden Theme? (I can just hear it: “He’s never written so many instrumentals before!” After two of ‘em.)
The whole reason I take up in opposition to these sorts of comments is the extreme claims that people make – “unprecedented,” etc. It’s one thing, and true, to say the new songs are lyrically on the simple side. It’s another, and wrong, to say they’re basically unlike anything ever before. And it’s also wrong, in my view, to believe ‘this is the way it’s going to be from now on’. Billy, as evidenced by the ArtistDirect interview, is quite aware of the simplicity and thinks it’s just where he is right now. In other words, this is a conscious stylistic choice he’s making. He’s not ‘being lazy’ (as Pitchfork accused him of being re: the “Bring the Light” lyrics). As we all know he is in a ‘spiritual’, ‘meditative’ place (watch If All Goes Wrong to hear him talk about how complicated lyrics ‘mess up the meditative quality of a song’ (paraphrasing)) right now, and it shouldn’t be any surprise to hear some of these mantra-like notions coming out.
who said ‘this is the way it’s going to be from now on’? and I don’t think that it’s totally unprecedented to say these two examples are unlike anything before.. sure there’s the occaisional demo or b-side.. but examples like iotm, bring the light, etc, those songs has some other verses happening. with widow we get a bridge that differs from the rest of the repetitive moments, and with astral we get a few repetitive lines happening in different spots. I’d agree though, I personally wouldn’t complain if the song was an instrumental.
But where as you say it’s unprecedented to claim that the new songs are lyrically unlike anything before, I think it’s just as unprecedented to claim that songs on gish had no really meaning to them, MCIS is not as heart on sleeve, Adore is not a personal record, Machina, etc. You make this claim to after stating that you’re really not a lyrics guy when it comes to the bands music (maybe i heard that wrong). I think saison’s point was that there’s a counter argument to your own claim and it’s not being represented in the podcast.. a lot of the fan connect with the lyrics, can find some meaning in them, while others are more into the guitar playing, or the drumming, etc.
i’ll also add that i personally don’t think that this is the way it’s going to be from now on.. we’ve got sons like tom tom, baby, etc etc to look forward to that break that argument down.
@jjb
Is it really a stylistic choice? I believe Billy wrote, in one of the oboard articles, that ever since he was panned by critics for his poetry book he has become very self-conscious about his lyrics and writing style. Even with the ArtistDirect interview, it’s something that Billy has noticed but he doesn’t seem to know how to address.
Adam, I am not claiming that someone’s claims are unprecedented. I was reacting to Saison94′s claim that “What we are being treated to now lyrically and structurally with these songs is unprecedented for this brand. [sic]“
Re: ‘the way it’s going to be from now on’…the entire argument has been framed as “the new songs”, “the new direction” (Saison94′s words) as opposed to it being a couple/few songs. To me there’s been a higher frequency of simple lyrics lately, but I would deny that simple lyrics comprises a “new direction.” I think Widow and AP are cherry-picked examples — which is precisely why I feel justified in cherry-picking examples of simple songs from the past like “Worship,” “C’mon,” and so forth. The Spirits in the Sky song “Circular Change” is a new song with quite a bit of lyrical substance. If “Circular Change” is the next single, are the ex-fans going to claim that ‘the new direction’ is back to evocative lyrics and so they’re back on board? Right.
@halo – That’s a good point, he seems to want to write ‘fuller’ lyrics, and I’m sure when they come to him he will do so (hence me not thinking this is a ‘new direction’. Still, he chose to put out AP and play it live…he must be okay with that song. It’s not like he doesn’t know it only has a dozen different words or whatever.
jilly – I’ve heard most of the podcasts, and I’m sorry but I do not count ripping on non-music related things like the old website or an interview as representing the feelings of the fan demographic I’m referring to. So you ripped on Billy for putting out the douchiest, most indefensible interview of his career? Wow, really went out on a ledge there, didn’t you… Was that really your best example of summoning actual criticism?
The way you described me as a “former SP fan” sounds like it was taken directly from something Billy has said to a group of minions after a show. We can’t have “unhealthy” people on HU podcasts now, can we?
Oh, and I still stand by that statement regarding precedence, especially if the only thing that’s referenced as a counter-point is Snail, for god’s sake.
And like someone else pointed out, it’s not like he’s going on Leno and singing French Movie Theme.
@saison94 yeah, I too am getting sick of the ‘you must not be into the band as much/not a true fan of the band etc. if you tend to rip of things you disagree with us on’ argument.
and jjb, fair enough, but you do agree that your assessment of the previous records (gish, adore, etc) was a bit unfair and a tad overkill when trying to represent your own point? yes, cherry picked two recent examples, but to say it’s fair game because gish had meaningless lyrics is a bit far fetched for some fans who see meaning within the lyrics of those songs, and have a harder time distinguishing meaning from ‘everyone gather warm your soul’ and ‘widow wake my mind.’
It’s also quite telling that he has to go back as far as pre-Gish (before the band essentially became the Smashing Pumpkins) when Billy was 20 years old to find examples of similarly repetitive and/or mundane lyrical practices…
FYI, @saison94 — I wasn’t specifically identifying you as a former fan. I was speaking in general terms, hypotheticals, about one direction the podcast *could* take.
Believe me, we’ve tried many times to get a different voice on the podcast regularly, but like I said — it’s hard to get people to care enough sometimes. And I can’t blame them. It takes sustained effort to run a blog (for free) like this one.
Devoting one hour a week to talk about something you’re passionate about shouldn’t be a tall order, but then again, what do I know about keeping up an awesome blog like HU :)
btw, one of the podcasters sounds like Billy Corgan
Believe me, we’ve tried many times to get a different voice on the podcast regularly, but like I said — it’s hard to get people to care enough sometimes. And I can’t blame them. It takes sustained effort to run a blog (for free) like this one.
I guess my continual non-interest is interfering with the podcast balance…sorry mates. Of course, as @saison94 notes, you kind of have to be passionate about it. Only reason I’ve even heard WWMM is because I catch it on XRT now and again flipping through stations.
Will say, I did watch that Tristessa vid, and while nice to hear and a decent enough version, felt kind of like what that Jimmy plays the Pumpkins with the singer of Our Lady Peace would sound like. Just with not as good of drums, and a singer that sounds a lot more like Billy.
At least billy was having fun.
audience was having fun too.
Haha, so he DOES lurk! Pins, you must have radar whenever anything is said about you, even if you’re not named. LOL. ;)
But yeah, your answer is precisely what I was describing. Hard to get people who are no longer active fans to come on a fan podcast and be expected to be current with everything that’s going on. Heck, it’s hard enough as a BLOGGER to keep up with everything they’re doing sometimes. When it rains, it almost certainly pours in Pumpkinland.
Well, I have to see what I disagree with jjb about every so often…
Jason’s comment about Billy not being a “professional idea person” is utter nonsense. I don’t know what a songwriter is, if not that… and anyways, why would someone need to do something “professionally” in order to do it well? It’s a dangerous, elitist attitude.