“A walking, living, breathing contradiction” 12:49 pm // Thursday, March 11, 2010
Posted by jjb in billy corgan, interview, john mayer, scary.trackback
So did Mike Schiller of PopMatters label Billy Corgan in his (excellent) 2007 review of Zeitgeist, and outtakes published today from Corgan’s recent Rolling Stone interview do more to justify Schiller’s assessment than, well, just about anything ever.
Corgan, on recent interviews given by John Mayer:
Certainly a talented guy, but empathetically, standing on the sidelines, it’s hard to watch someone literally burn their career to the ground — speaking as somebody who’s done it.
And specifically regarding Mayer’s now-infamous equation of Jessica Simpson and “sexual napalm”:
I think for any person who has celebrity to sort of drop rocks at somebody else’s feet like that — there’s things you should really just keep your mouths shut on. There’s things that should just be left alone.
wow, talk about being a hypocrite. could you imagine all of the other things billy said that brian hiatt chose not share?
Somebody please email that 2nd quote to Billy Corgan and tell him a shaman asked that we deliver this message to him.
I liked that review.
Incredible hypocrisy…
um…
So. Not related to this, but Mike Garson is playing on the new Dillinger Escape Plan record “Option Paralysis”.
Wow.
I am not going to get into any “Billy bashing,” but I am stunned to read those particular quiotes. In some ways, at least the man is self-reflexive about his own actions (“…speaking as somebody who’s done it…”) but overall, this statement plus that horrible one about Chamberlin being a destructive human being, it is just so troubling. Of course, none of us know Billy Corgan personally and whatever happenes between him and Chamberlin will only really be known by those two men, I have to say that it is strange Corgan will call someone destructive when he has been the only one to hurl destructive, brutal statements against others publicly. I wonder where his personal filter is set to. What would be awful enough where even he would keep his mouth shut, and havig certain issues “just be left alone.”
I LOVE Corgan as an artist–he is one of my favorites,and in many ways, one in a long line of brilliant yet mercurial talents. I LOVE the new songs, the new direction, and am anxious for the remainder of “Teargarden.” I wish any stories abuot him, especially ones he has decided that he would ike to speak to the press, would be focused on the work and not the drama. That said, all of this new drama makes me worried for him as a human beiong. I just wonder why he leaves trails of “scorched earth” with members of his past. Why is he STILL so angry about Iha? Why does he burn bridges so completely? I am feeling his sprituality is where he wants to be and maybe he is trying to do the work that gets him there but these awful recent statements make me worry about his personal health and happiness.
I wish him well.
(sorry for the spelling errors…in a hurry)
unreal how blind one can be
@Scott
I think one chooses to consider these non-musical facts. This is all a vicious circle. Once we stop caring about the superficial elements, things will be cooler.
no one has mentioned this possibility, but i feel billy himself is in destructive mode. he’s burning every last possible bridge he has, almost like he wants to get rid of whatever it is he has left. he wants his career over and done with. for what reasons i don’t know, but to me it almost seems like the traits of a person that is suicidal. i don’t know why the whole suicide aspect isn’t discussed (it was the opening paragraph of the article), but it’s very alarming and a lot of the fans are choosing to ignore it. the guy is obviously not in a healthy state of mind, and the possibility of him doing some kind of harm to himself is apparent.
or perhaps i’m reading too far into it, and he just wants to destroy the pumpkins so he can have it all to himself. completely disassociate the people that helped make the band what it was/is. drag in musicians that are more disposable (mike byrne). he thinks that’s what he wants now but down the road he’s going to have fewer options for his band.
@Adam
I know I am worried. This is the only thing that really matters to me now. If he hurts himself, I’m gonna take it as a hard punch in the face.
And yeah. Maybe it’s not at all alarming but… it’s just weird.
I’m not sure it is a bad idea to surround himself with young talented musicians though. Jeff and Mike seem like good influences on his life. I like them a lot.
jimmy was also a good influence on his life as far as i’m concerned. but he’s burned that bridge.
do i have evidence to prove that? no. but i don’t believe a word billy says about how their relationship ended.
The new young guns of the band seem “fresher”, cleaner. Maybe, who knows, this could help on a long term basis.
I’ve chosen to not think too much about the Jimmy thing, otherwise I wouldn’t be around any more.
well so far he’s got about 6 former band members he dislikes now. he’s taking a big risk by hiring people he barely knows at all.
It seemed to end well with Lisa and Ginger at least.
Am I the only one who could not care less about this kind of stuff? I was gutted when Jimmy left, but it is what it is. Billy mouthed off about it in an article? Jimmy’s gone either way, so big whoop.
How as a fan I’m deeply concerned about Billy.Because he leads us to be he in tune with body-soul-mind integration, but it seems he’s falling off into a downward spiral.I wish not to speculate at all.But this is very worry-some here.I’m sincerely concern for him.
I try not to think about the drama aspects of anything…
I feel Billy is just lost and confused it seems.
Sure he seems to be on a path full of peace& harmony with all things.
But then again his behavior been erratic off the wall at times.
Someone that’s not living in the pass, doesn’t open the pass up.They leave all of it where should be “IN THE PASS”There’s still unsolved issues with him.Being a person that know what it is coming from a abusive back and having a addicted dad etc..I lived this like.One that is set free from the pass doesn’t act like this….it’s confusion..I guess it’s not for us to figure out but for BC to and solve.
Prayers for Billy Corgan<3
Projecting much Mr. Corgan?
I’m leaving this alone – almost
@Chris – kudos on your comment about heavy metal poisoning…
remembering what I said about a relationship with Jessica over the long term inherently being self-sabotaging and how it was in conflict with his spirituality – yea that sure seemed histrionic at the time now didn’t it?
It is interesting, given BC presented/played them with the JS possible romance angle -did RS just decide to give him the tabloid treatment deserving of what he approached them with? Instead of treating him like a laudable artist? And wonder of all wonders, this oil/water combo backfired as Billy ended up spouting off about his relevancy way too much in the backdrop of a sensationalist, tabloid article, which ended up practically screaming self-parody. Talk about a toxic combination.
I’m feeling Rollingstone vindicated at the moment.
Thanks.
Is he, combined with JS, starting to come off like a major hypocrite? Just the association turns off the music community and the majority of the SP fan community it’s that bad.
It doesn’t pay to betray your spirituality.
Never.
no matter how good it might look.
What the hell are you guys talking about? What a bunch of drama queens. So Billy bashed Jimmy in some magazine article. So what? He probably had some legit gripes, and he probably heard a bunch of nonsense speculation from people like you that bore no resemblance to the facts, and wanted to set things straight.
I see a long list of apoplectic freak outs about oh no, maybe Billy is trying to destroy his live, maybe he’s suicidal. What? Really?
Or maybe he’s just a little bit of an asshole. But he’s a hell of a guitar player and I dig his music, so more power to him.
We all say thing we regret later. Its apart of being human, and we learn from it. And if you dont, your foot will always be close to your mouth.
yes yes yes let us give him a free pass because he can play the hell out of a pentatonic scale.
I’m be the first one”NOT” to judge no one ….at all.But peace and love is not bashing people.
With peace and love comes…
Understanding
listening without judgment
kindness
compassion
And all things that comes with a human being, that is “ONE” in harmony..
This is NO WHERE near love to bashing someone openly or behind there back…It not someone that is in a peaceful or in harmony..
I’m not a drama queen never have been.But right is right and wrong is wrong.Guess what I’m not judging, but it was WRONG.
If going to WALK the WALK and TALK the TALK .As everyone does in this life.Better be able to contain your behavior and way your present yourself before others.Because it doesn’t make you look like nothing but a FAKE.
His behavior has erratic lately.I dont have live with so all power to him.I just hope all is will with BC.Still love Billy very much, talent man he is.Sorry there is something that wrong here..ever just have that gut feeling..but hey..what can we do about it..nothing but random on about the man and hope for the best out come possible…
A grain of salt.
I hate clicking on this site and seeing John’s fuggly mug.
Actually, Andy’s comments right here could be infused with much more wisdom than we know. Hey, it could be!!!
Whoever said this…
It doesn’t pay to betray your spirituality.
Never.
Your right, because when you do that,you betray everything you are or say your suppose to be.And Billy is waking a fine line there.He put his spiritually out for all to see.
He is putting that into question by his behavior…
Billy has so many bashors and people drinking hateraide.Might
not be something he can come back from.Sad even the tho.
Sad even the thought…
Billy is going through the classic cult initiation ritual. He is severing all ties with the elements of his former life and replacing his beliefs with those of the cult. This is fucking text book people. Look into it. He’s being a dick right now, but we should all probably be a bit concerned about this. He clearly has cult associations now, so this is not a far-fetched idea.
To people who give Billy a free pass to being a hypocritical spiritless douchebag because of his “great music” are confusing his own mediocre talent with what his former band members and producers were able to do with said minimal talent.
Look at what he was doing before working with Butch Vig, Flood, and Alan Moulder (and his former band mates) then look what he was doing afterwards… mediocre crap.
Billy was only ever as talented as the people he surrounded himself with, and as has been mentioned elsewhere, he’s surrounding himself with lackluster uninspired artists that do, if anything, drag his normally mediocre work down towards sub-par.
Seriously people. Wake the fuck up. Billy, by himself (and especially with other sub par artists), is NOT a great artist. Not even mediocre. Absolute shite really. Add on top of that his pathetic attitude and complete and utter hypocrisy, and fuck all… I weed out current Pumpkins fans from the possibility of people I want to be friends with like I weed out tea bagging republicans.
Crazy fucks to believe in this bull shit.
And fuck you. I can say and feel this way all I want, because there was a point where what Billy was doing stood for the things I stand for, but now I realize that Billy was just a small component in that… it was everyone else that really brought the band up to a higher level, and when Billy wasn’t an absolute pussy about dealing with chaos in his life, he was great an wrangling those elements together into a great art form.
THAT’s where Billy’s talent was at… taking all that chaos and focusing it into an inspired whole (with the help of producers and friend of course).
Yes yes yes, but Billy needs his peace. Billy needs to feel ownership of his life. He needs everything to be stable and perfect.
Cool. Good for Billy. But leave everyone else out of it.
I hear time and time again the current cult of Billy fans saying “Leave Billy alone!”.
Well fuck you. Billy is the one who won’t shut the fuck up and leave and let be the art and band members that a lot of us PUMPKIN fans still respect and appreciate.
Seriously. This about it.
Billy Corgan hates his former band members.
He hates all of the old albums and songs.
He hates all of his old fans.
Billy Corgan hates the Smashing Pumpkins.
@ anodetobillycorgan :
yes. oh my god yes. i think i orgasmed about 5 times reading that. i need a fucking smoke.
@Adam : Anytime baby, anytime. <3
Give them this: they admit that they’re jerking each other off.
maybe we should have a podcast too.
We could call it Hipsters Divided.
No, I got it! You know how there was “Vieuphoria,” and then “Earphoria”? So how about…”Podphoria”?!
i fucking love that song.
Let’s get married. <3
There’s definitely a contradiction between his blog and his actions lately but I think instead of attacking him (or even goin as far to say he’s a mediocre musician, which is outrageous) we should try to see it from his point of view. It almost seems like a cry for help and even though he may bring it upon himself, the guy seems to be struggling, but haven’t we known this all along, as expressed through his music. It’s like you people are surprised by his actions. I’d hate to speculate about his suicidal tendencies but in my experience, people who obsess over the thought of it always do. I don;t get why he has the need to be that open to his fans, or whoever is willing to listen, but Billy has said it best himself “there’s things you should really just keep your mouths shut on”. Either way he needs help, but I think he’s always needed it so it’s nothing really that new. Part of me feels for him but part of me also thinks he knew what we was doing in that RS article and that’s a damn shame.
Oh and there better be some chicks on stage when I see them this spring! HUGE disappointment.
sorry, maybe this was more appropriate in the podcast section. ah well
Since the psycho-analysis of BC has already started, let me throw in a few words of mine as well. I´d say, the whole problem springs from Billy´s hatred towards himself. He wasn´t able to come to terms with his own personality in the past (surely, you remember the “I never liked me anyway” line in Geek USA), he still can´t do it, despite all the things he says to persuade us otherwise. Perhaps, the destructive behaviour he displays is just a means of punishing himself, kind of self-flogging. I wish he realized that by such attitude he hurts and disapoints others as well.
Ohh .. god. Just leave him alone, his is not your friend/brother/husband or whatever, his is just a guy who makes great music. Music is a reflection of an artist’s heart and soul – so his has a beautiful one.
@Nancy
You would think this would be the point of view of grown-ups regarding an alternative musician but… no it’s much more complicated than that. Billy is destroying the whole universe.
As long as we disagree on the level of quality of his latest work, we can’t be on the same page. I, personnaly, honestly really love what Billy’s done since 2007. No exception. Let’s just say this helps care less about the rest.
Hes an adult, and can do what ever he wants to do. He’ll suffer for bad choices, and reap the benefits for good ones.
:)
Mid-life crisis?
After reading through this thread, all I can conclude about those of you freaking out and posting long rants about Billy is that there most be something deeply wrong with your own lives. None of the small fragments of evidence that have come out about Billy’s life should ever upset any of his fans to such a violently obsessive degree. There just isn’t much there. Some flaky, somewhat assholish comments about former band members? Some okay-but-not great music? Is that really worth all of this that I’m seeing in this thread? It looks to me like something broke loose in some of your brains. If I were one of you, I’d try to figure out how and why this happened (I doubt it has anything at all to do with Billy), and if there is some way to fix it.
And as for the entire premise of this post, I’m not really seeing the hypocrisy here. On the one hand you have John Mayer talking about his ex along the lines of: “Yo bro, that slut jessica, damn man, her pussy was so fucking tight. It was like sexual napalm man. Ain’t I cool for saying that? Ha ha.” Obvious douche move by any standard. Then you have Billy’s situation, completely different. He’s got this bandmate who he obviously respects musically. He’s worked with the guy for 20 years. He tried to make it work, for the sake of the music. But this bandmate of his is a bit of a bum. The guy used to be a huge junky for years, and it takes a certain kind of person to be a huge junky for years. He was so wreckless in his junky state that his actions partly led to the death of one of Billy’s friends, so Billy fires the guy. But then he lets him back in later, because he respects the guy and his musical ability. And he tries to make it work for years. But, well, the guy’s still a bit of a bum. Yeah, he’s not a huge junky anymore, but he still does bummy things. And it pisses Billy off. So Billy gets sick of it. He says, I’m the front man of this band, for the most part I write the music and make the decisions and take the heat for any risky moves we take that don’t pay off. And I don’t think it’s working out with you. You’re kind of a bum and your destructive behavior is bumming me out. I don’t want to work with you anymore. He says all of this behind closed doors. Keeps his mouth shut about it for months. The fans don’t know anything about it. Wild rumors abound. He’s got this cult of thousands of fans hoping that some day “the band” will get back together. He keeps getting questions about it. So finally he says “Nope, sorry folks. I don’t WANT the band to get back together. It was my choice to kick them out and I’m glad I did. Why? Because as much as they contributed to the music, I just don’t like them as people. So I’m moving on with my life. You can keep following me if you want, or you can turn away. That’s your choice. But no, I’m not planning on working with Jimmy or James or D’arcy any time soon because they piss me off. They’re destructive people. And as you know, I don’t think I’m perfect. I criticize myself constantly. But those guys piss me off and I don’t want to play with them anymore.” And how is he rewarded by the fans for this honesty and straightfowardness? With a bunch of weird, freaky, cry-baby shit about god-knows-what. I swear, Billy has some of the most fucked up “fans” out there. I guess his style of music just attracts those kinds of people. But really, get a grip. And if you hate his music so much, why the fuck are you even here?
Haha so true Andy!
Wow. Thank you Andy for taking the time to write that out – I didn’t have the energy for it. I couldn’t agree with you more! In a perfect world, that comment would shut up all the crazies on here for good. Keep up the good work!
I just wish that the story was about the music and not the drama because that is the eternal story about Corgan and that is why he is fearing his work will not be remembered. The work has always overshadowed by the drama, which he unfortunately plays into sometimes–like now. I have long accepted the fact that the original foursome will NEVER get back together and frankly, they really shouldn’t get back together for any reasons. Then, they would be as soulless as The Pixies have become, touring endlessly and playing the old song for the money and nothing else as they cannot stand each other. Somehow, despite the “four divergent personalities” of the Pumpkins, they made great music. I think Billy is still making great music. I long for Iha’s solo return. I am anxious for This. I just wish them all peace–and Billy in particular, peace for himself, his life, and his art.
Agreed, Adam. All I hear is a fretful “baaa.. baaa…baa!”
Oh, no. Agreed, Andy! I was agreeing with Andy!
@Adam, @pinkmnm: The weird new-to-us WordPress.com spam filter caught some of your messages (as you both noticed, I think). I think I have fixed the problem going forward. Sorry for the inconvenience. :(
Daffynition: Hipsters United commentor: someone who thinks the Smashing Pumpkins are so terrible they’re willing to spend huge chunks of their life discussing them in the comments section of someone else’s blog.
@bd lee, Scott, Churchofandy but most importantly Andy himself: huge thanks guys. It’s so refreshing to read you guys. So healthy.
Funny that we have to wait for the smoke to disperse for our voices(The positive ones) to be heard and read around here. The bashers are from far the most anxious ones to come write their shit around here.
Sorry but I couldn’t find no other words for what this is too often about: shit.
I love the music! Billy’s music. All the way!
Just a brief observation. Participants of this discussion can be divided into two categories (with the exception of Tree Spirit and Scott who don´t take sides and I must say I find their conciliatory comments quite refreshing, and some other occasional comments): those who verbally attack BC (his music, personal life, choices he made etc.) and those who defend him using exactly the same means as their opponents but pointed in counter direction. The way I see it, this discussion consists almost entirely of criticism, which only thickens the already thick atmosphere of negativity here. My point being: this is a vicious circle caused by both sides of the conflict. Just wanted to say what crossed my mind whe I was reading through the comments.
I can’t agree that the positive remaining fans participate as much as the bashers to the thickened atmosphere. Doesn’t make any sense. Sorry.
I love those that come in here and use the ‘there must be something wrong with your life if you bash billy! defense.
hey, guess what? the same bullshit could be aimed at your direction.. as in there must be something wrong in your head if you defend and still idolize this man.
to try again next time.
and thanks GV for agreeing with me.
They do by attacking “the bashers” (I don´t like this term at all). Somebody writes a “negative comment” (not neccesarily dumb or without relevance though, because as I already wrote, some of them contained several interesting points), then a series of verbal attacks by the “positive remaining fans” ensues. Let me give you an example. Somebody states that BC is an asshole or that he makes only and the immediate reply is that it´s not true that he can only say that because he/she is the asshole. The offended then try to strike back. It´s frustrating, can´t you see? I can´t figure out why somebody who indulges in tiresome never-ending arguments can think of him as a representative of the better part of the fanbase. That´s why I decided to stay out of it. I epxressed my views on the latest events concerning SP/BC and don´t think there is the need to repeat them all over again.
@Bigpumpkins I wonder why that is? I’ve always been overtly positive of the pumpkins/billy because they’ve always been my favorite band right next to Floyd, Primus, Tool, Radiohead, PJ, etc. but the pumpkins have always stood out because of all the interviews Billy has done over the years and his courage to open up his soul, risking harsh criticism. His music has helped me in ways I cannot possibly explain and I’d faithfully come to his defense on any issue because I’ve somehow put my trust in him. There is much I don’t know about the guy and the article left a bitter taste in my mouth with the cult and Jimmy thing but I can’t speculate as I’m just an ordinary fan. Maybe I’m just realizing that it’s never good to put total trust into someone, especially when you don’t know them, but when you connect to an artist the way many people have done with Billy, it’s disappointing when there’s more negativity on a fan site than there is positivity. I apologize for the rant but had to get it off my chest.
Andy, thanks for writing that. I echo those sentiments exactly.
@Adom In a way I’d admit that I idolize Billy because I have a spiritual connection to his music. I don;t think that means I have something wrong with me. I honestly don’t see the connection. I’d admit he has faults and he even admits that but that doesn;t have to change my perception of him. whhen I say idolize, I don’t mean obsess. There’s a difference I think between the two.
*makes only mediocre music now( 5th line); sorry, I overlooked the missing piece.
Just like Adam wrote. He expresses his opinion. To him it is valid, he states something he believes in as do those who say that he is of a need of professional help. And there we go – two convictions in a head clash. Nobody´s going to stand down because he feels he must defend his own view. And on and on it goes like that. That´s what I´m talking about.
I like how Andy provided so many convincing examples of evidence as to why Jimmy has been a “bum” over the past 10 years. I mean, it’s obviously been proven that Billy got rid of him for being a “bum” and not because he was no longer impressed with Billy’s act or that he didn’t like the way he was handling/managing the band. Right? Nah, that couldn’t have been the case at all…
Saison, can ask you something? Have you read The Animal Farm?
@Andy, do you have any evidence that jimmy was still acting like a bum? if so bring it forward. otherwise you are just speculating. and his ever growing musicianship seems to contradict that he’s been acting like a bummy musician.
and saison, how the hell was that convincing? there was no proof to back up any of what he said. yes, the ’96 incident. but billy himself has hired him numerous times over and over the following 10 years.. to play on machina, zwan, some of tfe, then sp2. if jimmy was such a ‘bum,’ why the hell did he continue hiring him?
and purple pumpkin, enjoy his music if you have that connection to it. but to defend someone that obviously has a tortured personality is something else. And i don’t think negatively of him for it in some ways, i’m more concerned about his well being.. i really feel he may be suicidal. he’s going off the deep end, and those that don’t want to hear that about their idol chose not to hear it.. then defend him. and yes, i do think his destructive behavior as of recent has lent a helping hand into the quality of his music.. imo it’s on the down turn. He’d be a better musician these days if he wasn’t so wrapped up in his own self determination to destroy everything that makes him good musician and artist.
but yes marek, you are correct. it’s a never ending battle.. but honestly why some fans will still defend his latest actions perplexes me. this interview is him at his worst. even the HU podcasters aren’t apologizing for him, or defending his words.
@Andy
Now that was a crazy rant. How can you label Jimmy a bum? How can you label James Iha destructive? What because Billy says so? I think most people here love the music. We just wish they would get back together. It is the same reason people always wanted the Beatles back together. In this case the pieces are not near as great as the sum.
@KingChris
I don’t think they can ever get back together, Billy hates James too much and Jimmy will be too pissed (after being fired for a second time, seemingly for nothing too this time) to work together. The only thing I can see, is if at some point Billy decides to call it quits and ride into the sunset (stars, cus of his cult), they might do a farewell concert or something with everyone? But who knows, D’arcy didn’t come out to that last Metro concert and that was supposed to be the last SP concert.
I really think there is a big chance that Billy is totally fine. He’s who he is for good and for bad and whatever works for him proved to work up to now for me. When you think about it, it’s the same Billy it’s always been. Only older and less popular. I think it will be fine! To me it is.
@jjb It happens, Thanks for helping :)
Did Billy mention being suicidal lately in the interview? I can’t really say if Billy is doing okay. I don’t know what is going on in Billy’s personal life to make any sort of accurate assessment. He’s alive and still working, so he is doing fine to some extent. He’ll have his good days and bad days. He did admit to being sad half of the time but that is something that he will have to deal with himself. Perhaps he needs to find/build healthier relationships, platonically and romantically, and learn to better balance life and work.
Billy is suffering from the same thing that millions of people are. Depression has become the common cold of mental illness.
well, this was Linda’s description of Billy from what she wrote on the oboard forum…
“people can see there are contradictions in things he says – he’s got his demons – that he is depressed – that he is eccentric – but is any of that new? no – the article barely mentioned what he spends almost every single day of his life focusing on – which is the music”
Linda says it’s not new, I know it’s not new but I was under the impression that Billy was getting better. He himself insisted over the past couple of years how happy he is and how he is the happiest he has ever been in his life, which is why it seemed strange that he would publicly admit that he is depressed or any talk of suicide.
@halo – I was also under the impression he has been getting better. His belief in his own defined God has even made me consider such beliefs, but to hear he’s still depressed or how did he put it, choosing between suicide and eating breakfast in the morning, makes me feel horrible inside. To me that’s what’s most shocking.
not to be cynical or anything, but billy talks shite a LOT. he’s lost me completely; my newest assessment is that he is a very very talented musician who is totally screwed in the head (duh!!). :-) i didn’t read his whole interview because i knew it would make me cranky. people who suicide generally don’t advertise it to the whole friggin world through rolling stone f’n magazine. so yeah, not particularly concerned… i think he’ll keep choosing cornflakes for brekkie or whatever… he’d wanna, since he has a more exciting and awesomely creative and free life than most of the plebs out there. just sayin. age has definitely made me cynical.
@halo I completely understand where your coming from. But people lye – To others and themselves – most of the time thinking that happy thought will cure them of the depression. Sadly most find out to late that will power cant fix them alone, and not only are they living oblivious to the world around them, but they become so deep in the depression that seeing the sun is almost impossible.
Like you said above though, i have no idea whats going on in his head, so i cant say that this is what hes going through.
I’m sure if internet had been what it is today in 1995-1996, and HU had been what it now is, things would have been pretty much the same as they are today. Different topics, same type of controversies. But who cares in the end!?
A Stitch in time is great. Widow is cool, refreshing and SFAS is epic.
Marek Dunovsky – No, I have never read “The Animal Farm,” but I have read “Animal Farm” by Orwell. Did you pass elementary writing skills?
You and Adam need to learn how to recognize sarcasm on the internet, cause it’s pretty obvious I was laying it on pretty thick…
The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Think only on those things that are in line with your principles and can bear the light of day. The content of your character is your choice. Day by day, what you choose, what you think, and what you do is who you become. Your integrity is your destiny … it is the light that guides your way. Heraclitus
It says that the content of your character is your choice.It is true that whatever you choose in life, how you think,what you do define your character. It is who you become.
No man can purchase his virtue too dear, for it is the only thing whose value must ever increase with the price it has cost us. Our integrity is never worth so much as when we have parted with our all to keep it.”Our virtue or integrity must be a kind that cannot be bought with anything.
Mine can’t be bought or purchase in any way not even to fit into the so called today society…
“Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man’s character, give him power.”
It is very true that if we want to test a man’s character, we must give him power. Most people who do not value integrity, will fall into the temptation of abusing and using it for his own benefit. A person with high integrity will stay the same no matter how much power he has or can even do great things for others using his power.
In this context, integrity may comprise the personal inner sense of “wholeness” deriving from honesty and consistency of character. As such, one may judge that others “have integrity” to the extent that one judges whether they behave according to the values, beliefs and principles they claim to hold.
In ending Billy Corgan going to act in this way his integrity is going to be question and rightfully.He is the one that putting it out there for all to see and says he is this and that and then acting like a mental case of rage and anger.
Ya,were not his family/gf/or even a close friend.Lot of us love him very much.i do.But dang stay on the meds or something because these mood swings are really starting to get annoying with his behavior issues..he is 42 not 2…
@pinkmnm
I can understand that and it is a methodology that some spiritual guides and even therapists recommend, because it is believed that happiness is a state of mind. However, you can only fake it for so long. It is one thing to come to peace with yourself and be grateful for what you have in your life and it is another to convince yourself that you are happy with everything that has happened, is happening, and is going to happen. True, some things are out of ones control but a great deal of his decisions were still his own. I suspect that he was in fact in a better place before he got really famous. I think being famous brought out the worst qualities in him, his narcism, ego, and insecurities. Sure, he did complain back then too about being depressed and how miserable he was but what young person doesn’t? You know how lately he has been saying that he is trying to get back to the person he was before he was famous? Perhaps, like someone mentioned, he really doesn’t like himself that much still, and, in a way, is striving to be the person he was but didn’t appreciate back then. Unfortunately, I think he has changed far too much to ever reach that and being famous/having money attracts a certain kind of person, not always but often. In that sense it can be hard to tell who likes him for him and who likes him for his status (I can’t even remember how many times he has complained about his love relationships in the past 4 years). That is why I think it is important to maintain relationships with people who knew and cared for him before he made it big, unfortunately, I’ve heard it mentioned that he “dropped” most of those people after he became really famous, as he said, he’s good at burning bridges, and now he is where he is. Karma, I guess. But, everyone deserves happiness and peace and, contrary to what he said in the RS article, everyone is worth loving, I don’t believe anybody is beyond redemption. I do wish him peace and happiness but, from what I’ve seen, he still has a lot of growing up to do. /armchair psychologist spiel – I only have a minor in the field :p
@purple pumpkin
It made me feel bad too reading it. But it made me feel even worse to see how angry and mean he still is, especially because I’ve read his spiritual blog and it completely contradicts everything he writes on there. I don’t understand what the point of the blog is anymore and it seems like he has pretty much stopped writing on it now that he has his book deal.
@adam I agree
“but honestly why some fans will still defend his latest actions perplexes me.”
Just because he so called”famous status” he puts his pants on one leg at a time,just like the rest of us.Making excuses for bad behavior is not something ,we ever should do,who ever it is.Sure I love him,respect him,think a lot of him.Think he overcomed a lot.It takes a lot of strength and courage.Dang admire this man beyond belief.
If you really care about in anyone in this life you are honest with them in your thoughts,opinions and views.
My integrity alarm goes off on this one sorry I’m NOT BUTT KISSING anyone.I dont like to point out no ones faults or flaws.This was wrong…no other way to look at it…..i’m done.
@ halo Very true :)
Saison:
A bit touchy, aren´t ya?
Nope, I haven´t passed elementary writing skills, couldn´t have since I´ve never been to any of the countries with English-speaking population… the whole grammatical principle of definite/indefinite articles is something totally alien, nothing like it can be found in the Czech language.
But I can´t (and won´t) deny that I made a mistake.
As regards the sarcasm… it must have been so thick that me and Adam couldn´t get it right (villainy ironical laughter).
*in the insane Czech language, that´s what I originally intended to write :)
“Lately he has been saying that he has been trying to get back to the person he was before he was famous”
Did he? Interesting. That maybe indicates he better understands the damage done by fame … and the desire for fame.
Remembering the person he was and wanted to be …
Waaay back in mid 93′, just when SD was released, Billy gave an interview where he spoke at length about the recent personal troubles he and his band had experienced. Of course the infamous depression and suicidal thoughts of 92 were brought up when the reporter asked Billy if he was feeling better. Billy answered that he was feeling much better, was getting his life together, had repaired his relationhip with his girlfriend and had married, was taking better care of himself physically (drugs?), was speaking to his family, had bought his first house, was continuing work with his therapist, and had, in short, finally made for himself a “life of substance”. He claimed that his goal was to live a normal sort of life at home and just play the ‘rockstar’ role onstage. He wanted to prove to himself and his audience that this could be done. He didn’t want to live the stereotypical celebrity’s isolated and empty existence behind guarded walls.
And then 1994 happened. lol
But I think you’re right that we can’t turn back the clock. We can only learn from our mistakes, repair what can be repaired, and move forward the best we can.
@xo
What do you intend with “And then 1994 happened”? Did anything huge happen to SP or Billy in 94 except the release of Pisces? The Lollapalooza tour?
Brian Hiatt is a bad interviewer, where was the deep discussion about Teargarden. I mean that interview was a huge oppurtunity to promote the new stuff, discuss musical influences, new directions, album concepts, etc. Instead I got to read some sensationalist piece of whiny drivel,WTF. What the hell RS? I was sad about the comments about JC, he is so talented, together they just rocked. I am happy that JC is hanging with his family though. So I get that.
Billy, you have so many decent, honest, sincere fans who always look forward to your new stuff. Do you hate us? You never seem to mention your fanbase. You only seem to mention the assholes that come to your show.
And WTF with Tila Tequila comments? What artistic or musical contributions has she made? JS can at least sing and sell records. Yeah, Brian Hiatt YOUR interview sucked. I hate this whole MTV LA sub reality, that’s the real cult folks. It’s a bunch of horseshit.
@xo
I think he is somewhat aware of his issues, I suspect that is partly why he admitted that he is depressed and wakes up trying to decide between breakfast and suicide. I suspect that he is also aware that he has made some terrible mistakes in his life but he is far too prideful to say so. He did also admit to being aware of his tendency to burn bridges. I do sympathize with him, though I am aware that a lot of his problems were caused by his own hand, it must be difficult for him to be in his 40′s and look back over his life and see where it is now. In hindsight, he seemed to have it pretty good in ’93. But I can understand not wanting to glorify the past or even think about it because it cannot be changed. That, I believe, is what pushes him to want to move forward so much – because the past, and his mistakes, do indeed haunt him.
@Bigpumpkins
That was the year that SP first hit it big. SD sold millions and they were on the cover of magazines, on mtv, and headlined lolla after kurt killed himself (originally it was supposed to be nirvana). It was also this time where his, much publicized, affair with Courtney started up again. However, I think Billy really changed for the worst with MCIS. I think that was what catapulted him into what he became, a sort of fame monster :p
saison: ever consider the possibility i was using sarcasm right back at you? and it seems you did not detect it… too bad.
@halo
I know all that happened in 94 but this is not intrinsically bad things like it seemed to be intended in xo’s comments.
@halo
Oh and the number of your last comment was so appropriate man. Talk about meant to be! :-p
@Bigpumpkins
I think xo was just trying to say that is when Billy just started to change. The time where pre-fame Billy started to disappear and his priorities changed. He no longer seemed to care about living a normal and happy life. Instead he seemed to revel in his burgeoning fame, you can understand how dangerous this can be for someone with severe insecurities. It did not reach its height until 1996, when they were arguably the biggest band in the world. In that same interview, where he mentioned trying to get back to his pre-fame self, he admitted that he thought fame would bring him happiness (I think it was the mancow interview). You can kind of hear the disappointment in his voice of how fast they “dropped” him once his star started to fade. However, I can’t say I feel too bad for him. That’s what happens when you discard those that love and care for you and exchange them for celebrity friends and model girlfriends. A lesson learned, I hope.
ha! That’s neat, I didn’t even notice the number :)
@halo
Yep I’m with you on that one.
Ok I’m gonna please myself.
Tarantula, 7 shades of nlack, Death from above, Starz, Bring the light, 99 Floors, Owata, Peace and love, Stellar, Ma Belle, A stitch in time, As Rome burns, and many more….
Who said Billy didn’t write good songs anymore? Really!?
I don’t think that Billy Corgan’s isolation really has to do with fame. I think it has to do with something more fundamental and unchangeable: His extraordinary musical talent. He just experiences the world in a different way from most people, including his creative “peers.” Unfortunately, there’s no way that Billy can rectify this. He just has to accept that he is a fundamentally alienated person and carry on with his fate.
…My two cents.
@Gv
soooo true.
i don’t believe he has EXTRAORDINARY musical talent.
he’s just as talented as a lot of other musicians, in a lot of cases more talented and in many more less talented.. so compare him to a lot of other musicians who seem normal and not jaded. the reality is he did let the fame and attention get to his head and his ego is a bit too big for his own good. has nothing to do with his abilities, which have plenty of times proven to be mediocre.
You know Adam, you’re actually repudiating a lot of us when you say that. And, well, you’re making you omnipresence around here sound a lot weirder also if the guy doesn’t have extraordinary musical talents. It’s his ability to write amazing songs in many styles(Subjective aspects) combined with his impressive guitar playing(Objective aspect) that make him extraordinary.
Believe me, Adam, he is extraordinary. We are all proving it on a daily basis around here.
Oh and “his abilities, which have plenty of times proven to be mediocre”
What the fuck?
Exactly what halo said.
Neither Billy nor his life were in a perfect state in 93 and I didn’t intend to imply so. What I wish to point out is the difference between Billy of 1993 and Billy of, say, 1997 or so. The former appeared to understand that, given the state of his pysche, it was necessary he build his life on a stable and trusted infrasture. Due to his decidedly unstable personal history, no doubt that new “life of substance” would at times be an uncomfortable fit, but it would also greatly strengthen his chance for peace, happiness and healing and, maybe even more importantly, greatly decrease the possibilty of causing himself further harm.
By 1997 or so, Billy, like the willful and rebellious child he so often can be, had almost completely destroyed that infrastructure. As he said in 2000, “I decided I no longer wanted that life. So I changed it.” Instead, he threw his lot in with what he now calls the “nihilists”.
It’s also worthwile to consider that without the tumult and torment of 91 and 92 we might not have SD. Likewise the tension and uncertainty of 94 and 95 provided the inspiration for MCIS. Pain provides. Billy isn’t the first artist to surrender to – and even court – pain and destruction for the sake of his art. “I thought music would be enough” But this is a contract easily signed by a boy … and usually regretted by a man.
The more sensible among us may see the empty promises of fame for what they are, but for those with certain pre-existing emotional issues the adoration of millions must seem the ultimate balm. This sort of ‘success’ is often catastrophic. 10-15 years later and Billy is still wandering through the rubble.
But the music is AWEsome. It is. It’s not MCIS, it’s not Siamese, it’s new, it’s great.
Screw the rest.
you are corect. lol
the music is awesome.
and i’m sure there’s comfort in that for everyone
no wonder his legacy means so much to him, eh? ;)
oh come off it bigpumpkins. repudiating a lot of what you are saying?
listen to some other music besides the smashing pumpkins and you might understand where i’m coming from.
-there is nothing extraordinarily special about his guitar playing.. yes he’s good, but he’s pretty cliche at this point, and he hasn’t developed his style past what he did during the 90′s. And that style was a combination of a bunch of things that came before (sabbath, zeppelin, sonic youth, hendrix, etc). IE: he didn’t really invent a style of playing that became influential, accept maybe for a couple indie bands that burned out fast.
-yes, he has written some great songs, but he has also written some horrible ones. His songs structures as of late are also repetitive of how he wrote many years ago.. so again nothing inventive happening. How does he try to appear inventive? by writing the same type of song but covering it with different instrumentation.. and he’s even losing that touch as of late.
-teargarden, TFE, etc., are all great examples of his tendency to be a mediocre musician at best.
yes he is talented, but extraordinary and above the rest? please.
but i’m really not sure how else to respond to that. you’ve got your way of thinking and i’ve got mine. you obviously think highly of him.. but there is a level of reality here that even as big fans of his music we have to accept that he is not one of the ‘greatest artists of all time.’ and still m point stands, some of the greatest artists of all time weren’t always as fucked in the head as he is right now.
Can’t we all agree to at least speak of Billy Corgan in a respectful tone? Has he not yet earned our respect?
Marek – interesting thing you mentioned about the Czech language, I know there are tons of other limitations in other various languages. I’m sure the same goes for English, too?
Adam – FAIL
@xo
Exactly. Having never had that stability and comfort, he was bound to feel uncomfortable living on a stable and trusted infrastructure but instead of dealing with the struggles he decided to destroy it and take solace in the adoration of millions. I think he also mentioned, in the RS interview, that he liked staying at Kerry’s house (with his family) because it offers him a sense of stability. What happened, happened. But, in hindsight, something Billy has said himself too, is that he should have a taken a break after the incident with Jimmy in 96 and deal with the problems that were occurring in the band and in his personal life. Instead he trudged on thinking that he was doing what was best for his career and the band.
xo: “As he said in 2000, “I decided I no longer wanted that life. So I changed it.” Instead, he threw his lot in with what he now calls the “nihilists.””
ha! yes. funny that he chased after that “nihilist” for about 9 years. That reminds me, that storytellers show always kills me, I know he was trying to be careful with his words because of who was watching him but I was perplexed when I heard it. But, to be fair, I don’t think he even understood what he was saying:
“I had just gotten married, I’d just moved into a new house, the band was achieving the kind of success that people only dream of and I was really hopeful with the idea that I was eventually and someday –and it looked like it was going to happen– actually have a happy life. Um, [chuckles] didn’t quite work out that way…Um, you know, hope is really the key component in life because one must have hope and faith to actually get out of bed and do anything in this world. And um, you know, in my mind at that time, I think I was 27 years old, I thought that I had arrived. I supposedly had everything one would want: the wife, the cat, the house, the car, and the money and the –oh yeah, the fame. And um, but I think what I’m really trying to say here is all I ever really wanted was a happy home. To sing this song now, it doesn’t bother me because I really went into those situations with the best intentions and when I found out they weren’t really for me, then of course, I changed those things.”
When you think about it, he doesn’t really much of anything that means a lot to him anymore except his legacy. I think that is partly why it is so important to him to see his name in that upper echelon of artists, to make his past mistakes, and his tendency to put his work above everything else, meaningful, and in a way seek confirmation that it was not a waste.
lol saison thinks he’s like a netphorian or something.
being respectful of an artist doesn’t mean praising them to the high heavens at all times. i still do respect a lot of his work, and in some cases him as a person. but as of late, he deserves about as much respect as he gives himself to other people, which is very, very little.
@Adam
It’s fine, I dont’ mean to convince you and I suppose you don’t mean to convince me too much either. You have to know though, I listen to A LOT of other things than SP/Billy. And I just want to make clear that even though you have been disappointed, it is not A FACT that Billy is totally has been or not extraordinary. His career path has fitted well with my journey, that is a fact. It’s all a matter of opinion. I don’t think he’s any cliche. In fact I don’t see any other musician who has known a more grandiose career and nothing can erase that. If you allow me, I think the negativity of later and recent events have too much shadowed all the great things the guy has done, at least in your eyes.
I’m sorry, he IS extraordinary.
Oh and I agree he is a combination of all that but does that make him less of a genius? The result is what matters and the fact is even though I know very well all of Zeppelin, Floyd, Sabbath, Sonic Youth, etc’s catalog, nothing compares to what Billy did in the end.
To me HE IS the greatest artist of all time. Don’t try to make me feel like a poser or a douchebag for claiming this on a blog dedicated to his band at least.
He is arguably one of the best ever in his genre.
@xo
I forgot the rest of the statement. He ended by saying “So, this song serves both as [?] prophecy and um, sort of a hope/unhoped…or unwished…” Which he pretty much admits that he, himself, was the one who rid himself of those things. I suppose because he mistakenly felt that they were the source of his unhappiness. Well, fastforward 10-15 years and he seems even worse off, by his own account. Funny, how he wishes he had that life now.
Adam. Have solace that there are others like you who understand.
No point fighting with Billy’s cult, I mean… it’s a cult after all.
Thank you for the exact storytellers quote. I knew my memory was slightly off.
I think he might very well have found happiness with that ‘nihilist’ and even been able to restore the bonds between himself and the other band members had his priorities and emotional stability not been, by that point, so severely off balance. Considering his chosen lifestyle, I think failure was almost certain. Circumstances were simply not working in anyone’s favor. Athough anything to do with that time frame is pure supposition on my part.
And yes … Billy is not the best tap dancer. He sure was trying though. LOL Very understandable of course. In fairness, in 95 he didn’t exactly have a ‘happy home’. But again, that was a situation he himself was largely responsible for.
“When you think about it, he doesn’t really much of anything that means a lot to him anymore except his legacy. I think that is partly why it is so important to him to see his name in that upper echelon of artists, to make his past mistakes, and his tendency to put his work above everything else, meaningful, and in a way seek confirmation that it was not a waste.”
Yes. And perhaps now some will understand that mere arrogance isn’t the sole driving force behind this particular need of his? A little sensitivity might be called for here.
@xo
Oh absolutely, he might have been able to find happiness there, she certainly has now. I just find it funny that he now refers to her as a “nihilist”, when that wasn’t the case a few years ago. As far as not having a happy home in ’95, well, I’m sure it must have been difficult for his other half at the time when he was having an affair with, among others, Courtney – whom he now refers to as an abyss – though, honestly, it is a relationship that has proven to be terrible unhealthy in his life. I do sympathize with him but it is difficult when he was the architect to his own misery.
lol In some circles, Courtney has been referred to as the “stalker” for many years.
I personally do not consider her much more than a remarkably successful groupie.
The nihilism remark was maybe the bitter result of being forgotton by the beautiful people. The A-listers moved on and so, naturally, we see them in a different light.
saison: let´s say I mentioned that language because – well, how shall I put it – I am a Czech? Nevermind.
Big: Even though the two of us haven´t agreed on anything as of yet, even though you called me annoying, I must agree that BC is extraordinary. When I discovered the music he produced, it changed my life and my thinking completely. Except for my father I can´t find any other person in my life that has the same kind of appreciation for Billy and his work. I still have got high expectations of Teargarden, I am looking forward to the upcoming song, almost like a little child is looking forward to a christmas present. But it still doesn´t dispel the bitterness I feel whenever I recall his latest actions. As it has been said, no-one is beyond redemption (weren´t those puprle´s words? I am not sure now) and I still believe there is hope for Billy. I wish so much he finally found the peace of mind. But from my own experience, I know how difficult that is. Learning how to love and respect yourself (adequatelly, of course) is the hardest part.
@ Marek
If you put things in perspective, with the 3 songs released from Teargarden up to now, aren’t you alreay fulfilled in a way?
@xo
haha, that’s actually a pretty accurate description. It’s even funnier because she claims that all of SD and MCIS was written about her and that Billy has not written any good song since she stopped being his muse. She also claims that she wrote a lot of his lyrics, including the “killer in me is the killer in you” line. Courtney can be interesting but is also batshitcrazy. I could never understand his fascination with her, it may have to do with the fact that she chose to marry Kurt (who became the defining alt god of that generation). I don’t think it’s a secret that Billy was tremendously jealous of Kurt. \
That is also what I took the nihilist comment to mean as well, bitterness. He seemed to enjoy that lifestyle quite a bit when he was living it, even now he still prefers the life in LA than Chicago. Anyway, I thought Billy had gotten over his desire to be the biggest band in the world again, I don’t see the point of treading down that path again. It didn’t make him happy then and it ain’t gonna make him happy now. I think he would gain a lot more respect if he just concentrated on making great music and not opening his mouth without thinking. I think his mouth has done more damage to his career than anything.
Well, a good groupie makes for a good muse. It’s part of the job description. He did get a lot of lyrical ‘inspiration’ from her. She’s a good lyricist, she can turn a good phrase. She just can’t write a song, but whatever. SD wasn’t about her. At least not directly(“good enough to lose, good enough to choose you, too”). But there’s plenty on MCIS that was. These two are similiar in many ways. I think there were parts of him many of even his closest couldn’t really understand. Parts that she recognized and VERY much exploited. It’s difficult, for instance, for someone who has not come from an abused home to truly understand the after effects on those who have. We can sympathize but not empathize. Courtney knew. I think that accounted for much of the original fascination. She led a fascinating life, was a force of nature, even back then. For an impressionable young guy from Illinois she was quite something. Later on you’ve got things like pride of association, guilt and obligation and loneliness coming into play.
The title above us – the “walking contradiction” line is very true. You can see this even in his old wish to play rock god for a living then come home to his happy little nest at night. He’s a true individual, a stubborn eccentric. Maybe that sort of simple life just wasn’t in the cards? Maybe it was too hard to balance both extremes. Maybe one life crept in and poisoned the other. But the alternative didn’t work either so …
I think Chicago is a difficult place for him to be. That’s a big empty house for one lonely bachelor.
we should send him a therapy bill ;)
@xo
I didn’t think of it like that. I suppose when you put it like that then his fascination with her does make a lot of sense. It’s the connection of abuse that brought them together. Very interesting. Still, I wonder if their relationship did more harm than good for each other.
You’re right though, Billy did/does seem to want to have both worlds. Especially during that time. He wanted to tour and have his fun but also have the understanding and forgiving wife…haha, it’s like a Fellini movie.
I’ve noticed that Billy has not returned to Chicago on his own for a couple of years now. He has been bringing his LA buddies to stay with him every time he goes back. I thought it was odd but I didn’t occur to me to think that it might be difficult for him to be alone.
By the way, xo, I’ve enjoyed talking to you, I certainly look at things a bit differently now.
keep tryin’…
Good God. I have seen the future, and it’s true. Remember this day those who witness, for I have seen it, and it is so! Billy has started a cult. Billy’s legacy WILL live on but it will be in the shape of a religion, just as L. Ron Hubbards legacy lives on through Scientology!
Hellarious. Just… hellarious.
I _really_ hope it ends up being as big as I think it’ll be… probably take a few decades, maybe even long, probably wont really launch until after Billy the Savior dies…. goooood god…. I mean, Billy.
Which parts of Mellon Collie were written specifically about Courtney? That’s interesting, I’ve never heard that before.
“In fact I don’t see any other musician who has known a more grandiose career and nothing can erase that.”
so i take it you never heard of john lennon?
@anodetobillycorgan – oh i know but it’s all too much fun sometimes.
@Adam
Who?
Muahahaha.
mmhmm.
@adam – In all seriousness, who do you consider to be extraordinary musicians? I don’t think you can compare great artists to each other because a great artist is unique. Billy’s guitar playing/songwriting is very unique with range greater than any musician I can think of off the top of my head. Pisces Iscariot is a perfect example. I would honestly like to know who you consider great/influential so I could check out their work and see maybe where you’re coming from, if you don’t mind. Can you really compare any two albums of SP? Seems like the opposite of cliche?
Seems like somebody forgot it was daylight savings time. It’s 4:21am here on the East coast. (Listening to Amnesiac, fitting)
Thought experiment:
Would anyone here really prefer for Billy Corgan to release ultra-conciliatory statements like this recent setting-of-the-record-straight from Allison Goldfrapp? Begin quote:
“hey everyone
I’ve been deeply upset by something that was written recently, so i really want to tell you this.
we love and adore all our fans and have always celebrated your diversity, especially at our concerts. looking out into the audience at the mix of people, our fans in all their glory, is something i really cherish and am very proud of. myself and Will have loved meeting you before and after concerts and have made films of you in all your finery. i have definitely never seen or met anyone who i considered a ‘weirdo’.
all my love to you and look forward to catching up soon xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
alison”
End quote.
http://www.goldfrapp.com/blog/?p=154
I think Goldfrapp have some classic songs (“Utopia,” “U Never Know,” “Black Cherry”), but I can’t help but think that this simple urge to be nice, while admirable, holds them back creatively in some ways. Certainly Billy Corgan is not held back by niceness.
Big: Hm, in a way, yes (if only each song were released in a shorter period :)) Listening to the last song really got me in a zealous mood. It promises a lot. But there is still a long journey ahead of us, so I´m a bit worried about the future. Will BC take us through all the way to the end? Is his commitment to music really that strong to last for the upcoming 4 years. All right, I know, he proved the strength of it many times in the past, but now it is different. 44 songs for free? It´s a massive, unprecendential project. Teargarden could have been grandiose with Jimmy still aboard. Since that is an example of wishful thinking, I´ll settle for what I´ll get. It´ll still be fascinating in terms of musical quality, no doubt (so far it has been to me). A part of me would be badly damaged if the project were abandoned at some point in the future. Don´t you feel the same way? How painful it must have been for the fans of Joy Division when they learnt that the path of JD had ended so fuc*ing prematurely! Despite the fact that quite a lot of people deems otherwise, I still believe that Teargarden may turn out to be the younger sibling of MCIS.
Gv, that makes absolutely no sense. How are Goldfrapp holding back creatively? And don’t forget that Billy himself has made ultra-conciliatory statements like that as well, then turned around and says or does something that contradicts it. Goldfrapp in general tend to stay away from big public statements, so I don’t see the correlation you’re implying.
@Marek
I choose to be optimistic because I don’t see why I wouldn’t be.
Anyway, who knows what can happen!? Sure some unexpected events or problems could in the future compromise the project. But I’m sure Billy will do about anything to achieve this goal. I trust him..
Anyway, if he had recorded and finished the whole album before he released it, we wouldn’t have heard a thing if something bad had happened during the way. Now the way it is we are sure to get music regularly. I find that one must be a very negative soul to see more bag than good in that.
About the Jimmy thing, I’ve had it. Sure it’s a shame but I came to peace with it. I prefer this actual version of SP than no SP at all. And by far.
@BigPumpkins: it’s nice you’re optimistic, but don’t say I didn’t warn you, I really think you’re in for a big disappointment. UNLESS you’re so used to disappointments with this ‘band’ now that nothing will bother you, even if BC abandons the project 15 songs in after a disappointing tour and starts a completely new project.
@Purple: if you really want to have that discussion, come out to my place and we’ll have a ‘music’ day in person. I honestly don’t have the energy to recommend a list of artists over the internet. come out to MA, we’ll make a day of it. we’ll have a listening party and i’ll burn you a ton of music. i’ll take you to some of the local indie record shops (and no indie does NOT mean indie rock music, it means record shops that are not target, best buy or other corporate places.. record shops that actually have some musical variety).. we’ll have some lunch and talk. then you can see where i’m coming from and why i now view billy as a very, very small artist in the overall picture of music that has been created over time. we’ll listen to jazz (bebop, modern, avant, etc), new music, some ‘serious’ music composers and some pop rock writers. song writers, genre leaders (and yes, billy was one of the genre leaders for a genre that lasted about 5 years), and artists that were able to hold their own past their 10 year prime. i’ll also spend plenty of time pointing out, in listening detail, why i feel billy is simply lacking in comparison to other said artists and why he really does not deserve such a high ranking amongst ‘all time greatest’ artists. then you might better understand where i’m coming from. sound good? don’t worry about bringing your pumpkins music, I already have it all.
GV– the guys in radiohead are nice. very nice actually. they still sell out 30,000 seater venues and their music has continued to grow creatively. they’ve experienced a greater longevity than billy has ever known, that’s for sure. maybe if billy allowed for some positive energy in his life, he’d be happier/more comfortable with what he was creating, and who he was creating it with and for. and hell maybe people would give him the time of day and not feel the need to speak so negatively of him back. it pays to be nice to people in this world.
@Adam don’t worry for me man, I’ll be fine either way. As I said, I am already fulfilled. I think SP fans are spoiled. We get so much new material all the time either way.
Wow, I take a few months off and you guys are getting 140 comments on one silly post?
Impressive and funny at the same time.
Maybe this band has life left in it yet, based solely on the insanity of the fans.
Adam,
I love Radiohead, unquestionably. I designed an experimental college course on them. I actually think it could be argued that Thom York’s reluctance to express overt anger has hurt some of their material – i.e. comparing the original “Reckoner” (which I got to see in its only live performance) with the ultimate product of “Feelings Pulled Apart By Horses.” Anyone who’s heard both versions will probably at least know what I mean when I say that applying a feeling of helplessness instead of overt anger to the song kind of sold it short. Or “These Are My Twisted Words” – the song builds and builds, very effectively, and then just dies off. If they had “overt anger” in their arsenal, it could have exploded at the 4:30 mark and become a truly epic song.
Thom Yorke said in a post-OKC interview that he needed to stop caring so much about what offended listeners. He said that, at one point, he couldn’t help but take it to heart when a mother wrote in and said that Radiohead swore too much. I actually do think that a reluctance to offend (a political correctness, if you will) has become a liability for Radiohead. Relatively speaking, of course.
yes but these are my twisted words is a tribute to motorik kraut rock (heavily influenced by ‘Can’ and ‘Sonic Youth’), so exploding with anger at 4:30 would have caused the piece to miss the boat entirely. Plus there were enough interesting moments happening in the guitar playing to keep the piece interesting (reflects the whole twisted aesthetic). maybe you just emotionally connect better with angry music? maybe the point of some great art is not to offend? maybe what we see as offensive is completely different, as in it seems ridiculous for a 40 year old man to write something ‘angry,’ riddled with curse words, etc. “In Rainbows” seemed more like a coming of age record, which to me feels like a more genuine artistic statement coming from a human being in their late 30′s to early 40′s.. and yes there were even moments on the record that were brash and offensive (bodysnatchers is a good example).
I’ve also heard quite a bit of overtly angry moments in Radiohead’s music over the past decade, some of the anger sounding quite violent (national anthem, ideoteque, 2+2=5, Myxomatosis, etc).. so I think it’s fair to say that Thom has not been that reluctant towards his angry tendencies over the past 10 years.. it just hasn’t dominated the bands music. But then again it really wasn’t a dominant factor throughout their entire career.
but given all that, how the hell is something like widow wake my mind and a stitch in time offensive? Those are two great examples of songs that start, go nowhere, and die off. I’d go as far to argue that his current music does not reflect the angry attitude he’s been portraying in recent interviews, and public appearances. If he’s really that angry, where is the offensive music?
All he is really doing right now is pissing off his friends and fans with his words, and not rocking the boat with his actual music. a lot of fans are angry with his music because they think it’s less than his proven ability.
@adam Thanks for the offer and if I’m ever in the area maybe I’ll take you up on that. Should I bring my bong or can you supply one?
I know someone with a very nice hookah.
@Adam, just so you know, and you might not realize it: you come across on here as a pretentious, conceited, borderline sociopathic flamer/troll who gets off on making other people feel bad about themselves. It seems like every populated message board with “regulars” has at least one of you, but from what I’ve observed, you’re up there with some of the most obnoxious I’ve ever seen. My previous post in this thread was mostly targeted at AnOneToBilly’s post at 11:54 pm on Thursday (the one that gave you “five orgasms”). AnOneToBilly seems to be disturbingly unhinged right now. His post was sad more than anything, and my response, while reflecting my disgust at what he said, was also meant to reflect my sincere concern for his well being.
But you, Adam, are something else entirely. You have been lurking here, posting several times per day, for months. And honestly you’re a large part of why I don’t read this blog as much as I used to. Your constant theme: “Billy is a lame asshole and his music sucks. And everyone who likes him is ignorant/lame/pathetic for doing so. But I am cool because I know about all kinds of good music. I won’t list any because that would open me up to the same kind of ridicule I’m dishing out at you several times per day. Oh, I said all of this yesterday? Well, I just thought I’d say it again, just in case you forgot. I’ll see you in a couple of hours.” Why are you doing this? Certainly not because you think the message is getting to Billy. No, this is not about Billy at all. What’s clearly happening is you’ve found an online community that for the most part is happy and excited about listening to a musician that they enjoy listening to, and discussing the new music that he his currently producing. You saw that some of them were dismayed by the over-the-top, heavy-handed, factually challenged bad reviews that came out of Pitchfork. This delighted you to no end. Probably gave you eleven or twelve orgasms. You literally couldn’t get enough of it. So you come back here for more, even manufacturing your own drama on a daily basis. Because you can see that Billy’s music actually means something to these people, and the sociopath in you feeds on the discomfort you can cause by repeatedly pissing on their good time by starting repetitive arguments about how Billy is a lame asshole and his music sucks and everyone who likes him is ignorant/lame/pathetic for doing so.
So to you I say, enough is enough. You’ve had your fun. Go jerk off somewhere else. The internet is a big place. Go ruin somebody else’s fun.
And, not as an invitation to start up some back and forth pissing match, because honestly you’re not even close to worth my time, I’ll say that no, I don’t worship Billy Corgan. I wouldn’t rate anything he’s done in the past decade at any higher than a 7 out of 10, unfortunately. And yes, I think there are artists who have done much more for rock and roll, including the Beatles, Neil Young, Pink Floyd, Led Zep, David Bowie, R.E.M., Black Sabbath, and lots more. Do the Pumpkins deserve to be ranked in the top 100 rock bands of all time? Of course that’s always going to be a matter of opinion, but if you want mine, I say yes. Maybe even top 50. And I would guess that most people on this board would probably agree. You’ve made it abundantly clear that you do not. In fact, you have made it abundantly clear that you think they, and especially Billy, sucks. And I suck too because I don’t agree with you. So now that we’re clear on that, there really isn’t much left for you to say on here. Why don’t you stop wasting yours and everyone else’s time whining about music you don’t like.
I think Radiohead is boring. I recognize they have something there, but it’s not for me. But I’m sure as hell not going to troll the Radiohead message boards repeating myself for months that Radiohead is boring, and how dare all those boring people listen to Radiohead. Why? Because I’m not a fucktard sociopath like you. Now get lost.
@Andy
+1 man.
i’m not going to spend the time reading that.. but where oh where did i take the time to insult people here? seriously? i’m being called a fucktard sociopath by you and in the same breath you tell me i intentionally insult people for the fun of it? incredible.
and i’m speaking within this thread or the past couple months. yes, i have been a troll before. but right now? try having a conversation with me here instead of reacting like i would have a few months back.
and one thing i’ve learned about the hardcore SP fans as of the past few months: ZERO sense of humor.
also, i’ll post here as long as i feel like i have an opinion on the subject of a band i do enjoy, a band that is currently dead. you can invalidate my opinion all you want with your own personal attacks, but it doesn’t change that my opinion has as much traction as anyone elses. the site is open to comments, which insinuates debate, and by god i’m going to fucking debate.
so either deal with an opinion that doesn’t agree with yours, or leave.
I never said you intentionally insult people for the fun of it. I said you’re an obnoxious troll and you’re pissing on everybody’s ability to enjoy this blog. And yes that includes this thread, and pretty much every thread I’ve ever seen you post in. And my sense of humor is just fine. You’re just not funny.
so we’re posting in a thread that deals with the recent RS article.. a heavily controversial article that has strong opinions from two different sides.
so far you’ve proven that you disagree with me heavily and that annoys the hell out of you. For example, I asked you to please point out any evidence that Jimmy was acting like a bum, and your response is ‘you fucking sociopath troll, you are not funny, etc etc).
yeah, maybe i tend to post on the blog too much, and obviously you read the blog too much.
and what exactly is your idea of an enjoyable blog? this is a site for fans to debate a band that has, over the past decade, accumulated a huge amount of controversies. we’re not living in ‘everything is happy and perfect’ land with this band anymore. so rither join the discussion or take a break from it.
and you never said I intentionally insult people for the fun of it? so did i misread this little gem?
“who gets off on making other people feel bad about themselves.”
Alright, a quick clarification, and then I’m done. I have better things to do than this. You make people feel bad about themselves not by insulting them, but by shitting all over the music that they like. Obviously.
And my problem with you is much larger than this thread. I’ve been reading this blog for a very long time. You showed up a while ago, but not that long ago, and your presence has made this blog much less enjoyable to read and participate in. Why? Because you’re an obnoxious troll, and you’re constantly on here, posting repetitive trolly posts that all amount to the following: Billy sucks, he’s lame, and anyone who likes him is lame. Just in this thread alone you said as much half a dozen times. And reliably, some of the regulars on here aren’t happy about your trolling, and you eagerly get in a back and forth arguments with them, like you’re trying to do right now with me, and you clearly get off on it. Honestly, that five orgasms comment of yours set me off a bit, because in my head I had thought many times, “man, this guy really gets off on trolling here”, and then you eagerly admit that trolling gave you five orgasms. Yeah, you were joking, you didn’t actually orgasm five times, but really, it’s sick, man. And I don’t think it’s funny. I’m really tired of it. And judging by comments from many of the others on here, I seriously doubt I’m alone.
-the five orgasms comment was a joke. you took it serious.
-i never said anyone that likes billy corgan is lame, but there are some holes in the thinking that he is up there as one of the greatest artists of all time. nor did i ever insinuate that anyone SUCKS AS A PERSON for thinking that way. I’m trying to debate the logic. I say I feel he isn’t the greatest artist of all time, he has some tendencies towards mediocrity and some people throw a shit fit over it.
-billy has been acting incredibly lame as of late and there are plenty here who do agree with that. you accuse me of being a sociopath while at the same time you idolize someone who shows obvious symptoms of being a sociopath.
this is the internet. it’s an open, free to access website. it’s not a magical place where people can worship the band and have fun doing it. the operators of the site have done a fantastic job of highlighting the negative press towards the pumpkins on this site, and such acknowledgment of press opens the fan base up for some debate.. debate i feel is worth discussing when it comes to this band and those who represent the ideals of this band.
so instead of coming forward and trying to back up your statements that i felt had many holes in them, you decide to attack me personally.. the very thing you despise in me. GV brought up an idea, i debated it, and he debated back, intelligently. it’s a discussion. i am not trolling in this thread. Yes, i am at times sarcastic, but to take personal insult to that sarcasm is your own problem. so either join the discussion or ignore me if my opinions bother you that much.
also, my invitation to purple pumpkin was genuine. discussing in detail what i feel is music at a higher level is NOT and easy and convincing thing to do over the internet. I could, for example, recommend that he listen to modern guitarist Kurt Rosenwinkel. Now, Kurt has a LARGE variety of music, and there is a good chance he may download two of his tunes, and those tunes might be the lesser of his catalogue. This would allow Purple Pumpkin the opportunity to completely dismiss my viewpoint.
Here’s why I’m cautious of this. Two years ago, I was asked by a guitar student to recommend her some great guitar based alternative rock music. So, naturally I recommended the Pumpkins. She comes back the next week and tells me ‘I liked the pumpkins, but it was very soft and the guys voice was kind of annoying.” I asked what song she downloaded, she responded “Believe.” She was then left with the perception that the Pumpkins were not a good representation of excellent guitar based alternative rock. Her idea of what my perception of what great guitar based alternative rock might be was also mistrusted at this point.
Oh, brothers.
These relentless and heated attacks upon Adam are quickly devolving into some kind of encrypted and sleazy hypermasculinized and intellectualized homoeroticism.
(As a female witness to this, I do believe I blush.)
It’s your intentions and approach, Adam, that are very debatable.
Also you tend express opinions as if they were facts. Like the title of “greatest artist of all time” was an objective matter.
oh come on. my intentions? you guys are even assuming what my intentions are? oy vey.
the greatest artist of all time.. no kidding it’s an objective matter. But billy himself said he feels he belongs up there as on of the greats, and he has either said this directly or implied it a few times.. and some of the fans joining in on this discussion chew it up.
to clarify.. chew it up as though it’s got some validity to it, and i don’t feel that’s the case. sue me for not thinking he’s up there with the greats. I’m glad you do see it that way, that’s your right to feel that way. I don’t. get over it.
… and the followers of Saint Corgan raised their voices upon high declaring a holy war against Adam, for he may have been the first, but Saint Corgan shall be the last.
BTW, Adam speaks for those who have long since left, of which I am one who has slowly been stepping as well.
Cult of Billy is entitled to their opinion, but there used to be Ghost Children who believe in the Smashing Pumpkins (fuck all had nothing to do with Saint Corgan as the false profit he’s become), and as long as Saint Corgan wages ware against the Ghost Children, you ass holes are just going to have to deal with anti-Corgans like Adam (the first who will not be the last) for a little while longer.
… but you should get your cult-heads out of your cult-asses and learn patience as Saint Corgan has instructed, because just as has been foretold, the Ghost Children (as such Ghosts they are) will eventually all fade away as the false prophet continues the constructions of the Church of Corgan.
Aww man.
@adam – I am not that naive, though honestly I am less concerned with technical aspects of guitar playing and more concerned with the emotional aspect of a song which draws me to SP more than most bands, but anyway I’ll check this guy out. It’s not like I made up my mind with SP after just a few songs either but that fuzz in hello kitty and the solo in plume resonate deep. I don’t think one really chooses the music they like and many people listen for different reasons. I know nothing of music theory but maybe that gives me an advantage in some regard and disadvantages in another.
Very nice speaking with you as well, halo.
There’s much more to it all, of course. Some I understand now but didn’t then and much more I will never know. There are many things the general fan has ignored, mocked or chalked up to coincidence which are not only true but essential. Those things might not ever come to light. (Although maybe in the upcoming book … but I doubt he’ll be completely forthcoming even then. Honestly, I don’t think he should be. Some of it’s dark.) As for the other more mundane stuff, many times people have counseled Billy to “just shut up”, in other words stop sticking your foot in your mouth. On the contrary, I think a good part of the problem is he doesn’t say enough. Sometimes because there are people he needs to keep safe and things he wants to remain sacred, but mostly just because he has a hard time saying what he really feels. It can not be overstated just how insecure he is. Without context, what little he does let out is almost inevitably misunderstood. It’s difficult translating something so complex into a media soundbite.
You mentioned the summer of 96 – such a fateful time. In late 95 and the first half of 96 things appeared on the outside to be rolling right along, while on the inside the process (or the fool’s journey you might say) had been corrupted. That corruption came to sad fruition that summer. This disruption of energy couldn’t be healed with continued movement. It required just the opposite, but he realized this too late and both the band and his personal life never quite recovered. He caved under pressure fom Virgin, his management and others. Plus, when the ‘psychics’ say “stay the course” … but which course? lol. Arrogance. One of the few decisions he was able to admit was in error.
I feel I should add that while we may be of the opinion Billy shoots himself in the foot`with alarming regularity, I suspect he would say he simply allowed painful though necessary events to unfold. To that I would reply, character is destiny. ;)
But even more important to remember is that Billy isn’t, as he himself recently joked, a well-drawn cartoon character. This is a three dimensional, flesh and blood man we’re discussing, dissecting and tearing apart. Just like the rest of us, he has his baggage, he makes mistakes, he says stupid things, he has good days and bad days, he wakes up in the middle of the night and wonders what the fuck he’s done and what it all means. He’s complicated and uncommon, to be sure, but he’s still human. Judge him at least by the same criteria you would your family, your friends, your neighbors. Maybe cut him a bit more slack because, unlike all of us, he’s playing his part before millions. Go easy on the guy now and then. You never know who’s listening.
@purple pumpkin – i’m not that concerned with technical aspects myself.. but i do see advanced skills and musicial knowledge as having an expanded vocabulary to better express an emotion. i.e. as much as i appreciate the technique that goes into kurt’s writing and playing, his sound, expression sits above all of that. he is a good example of an artist that has grown over the past 15 years with each following release. Corgan likes to proclaim that he is that type of artist, but there is evidence within his music that suggests he is truly repeating himself and has not grown all that much. he’s also said things like ‘i’ve taken my guitar playing as far as it can go,’ which seems like a completely negative and lazy viewpoint on ones own artistic voice. he’s even said, as of recent, that he can accept being mediocre if it means not putting all of his soul and blood into his work. He had a great, great start, but he hit a plateau at some point, then started a decent when he got involved in some things that really brought the level of his best music down. ‘firing’ jimmy is a great recent example of this.
so yes, there are plenty of pumpkins tracks that do resonate with me. i love the band a great deal.. but when it comes to calling billy corgan one of the greatest artists/musicians/songwriters that ever lived, or even recognizing him as a world class musician.. given my experience through what i have learned about music, what i have listened to, the great, kind musicians and artists i have learned from, i just can’t do that. he simply doesn’t belong on that list. And he is not recognized as such by the larger public, and there is a REASON for that. this is not ‘oh the world is wrong’ and he is misunderstood. he had a good run in the 90′s as far as recognition is concerned. The musicians that do rise above the rest? most of them are humble and don’t consider themselves as the cream of the crop. they just enjoy what they do.
Despite what he’s said here recently, Adam certainly does insult people on Hipsters United. I quote from a previous thread:
“oh wow quite the douche bag are we? does my masters degree in composition also give me the ability to see your opinion and disagree with it? does my thesis in my undergrad on radioheads music give me that same ability? jesus fucking christ. get to the point. I can’t believe you feel entitled to a superior opinion based on your credentials, while failing to answer the questions I had regarding the holes in your opinion…. and the whole ‘i can’t talk to you’ thing. wow man. really? we’re being a snob now?… You didn’t give oberlin a bad name, you gave yourself a bad name. Already backing out on a debate? I’m sure this class you taught was a great success (note sarcasm)….also your songwriting is weak, not something i would listen to and think that you must have a stronger, more legitimate opinion on radiohead. If you really knew how to listen to that band, you’d know how to arrange your songs so they wouldn’t sound so linear.”
So Adam. If SP is, like, your 134th favorite band of all time, does that mean you spend more time on 133 other blogs dedicated to the bands you love more?
>>>”Also you tend express opinions as if they were facts. Like the title of “greatest artist of all time” was an objective matter.”<<<
That's the art of rhetoric. And most human beings confident about the opinions they hold, can and often express them as such. Any thinker-reader with half a brain, whether or not one agrees with Adam's opinion, could figure out that he was stating his "opinion," which he then supported with "facts."
i.e If you call Jimmy a "bum" and can't back that up – that's a silly opinion. (And yet my preceding statement is an apt opinion). To resort to name-calling and invective as a back up for any opinion i.e. Jimmy is a "bum," renders it a worthless opinion, yet seriously calls into question the intent of the rhetor who offered it.
"Facts" and "opinions" ARE different things, and yet are also interrelated and interdependent. Good opinions need good facts to support them. And limited facts can be stated in ways that omit other needed facts, whose omission strategically alters the alleged "truth" they appear to represent – thus present "opinion."
And the role of context(s) in all of the above, is everything.
Debate? What happened to dialogics which the best “discussion” and discussion boards are about?
Wow 167 comments…….I guess Billy can still get under people’s skin to the point where they take hours out of their day talking about how much they don’t like what he has to say. It’s like ’96 all over again. It’s good to know no matter how many things change in the world, there will always be some dumbass trying to tell me that “Corgan sucks”. And at the same time, I know that I will always hear that, turn around, walk the other way, and continue going about my day unchanged by that person’s opinions.
I personally can’t wait for the next song, the box set, and the next tour. TSP foreever! (and no I am not being sarcastic, I just really love the Smashing Pumpkins)
I think Billy could write 100 great pop songs in a short amount of time and be more recognized than he may be now but he chooses not to for his own personal reasons. He has that gift to just bust out a great song right off the top of his head if he chooses to do so. I personally like his solo album. Is it his best work? Probably not but I’m not going to fault him for trying something new. I think Billy’s best work is behind him but he’ll still continue to surprise his fans I think, whereas Radiohead has a more promising future as far as maturation goes. I just don’t care for the argument that he’s not really into it anymore because he’s always been passionate in his work. I think the next EP or 3rd EP will be great because we’ll be hearing songs we haven’t heard before and that will be the true test. I don’t think you can make the argument that there’s a REASON for why he isn’t as widely recognized because I’m sure much of the music you listen to hasn’t been heard by a lot of people either, which is unfortunate.
this thread just made it a hell of a lot easier for me when i make my list of mentally retarded fans of the smashing pumpkins, thanks!
GV: I have since apologized for that statement. why are you childishly dragging these statements from 5-6 months ago back into this discussion? this is getting insane.
don’t typos suck
LETS GET THIS DIALOGIC ROLLING!!!
yo adam don’t apologize to these bitches, real fans like us know how it is and that’s all that matters. KEEP ON SHINING DOOD
And speaking of Adams, Aints, Saints and Corgans – and missing contexts:
“Man is not a first man, an eternal Adam: he is formally a second man, a third man.” – José Ortega
@Flappy – Did you bother reading this thread? You’ve provided no insight into the matter but you think you have the right to call us bitches. In the words of Adam, Incredible.
no why would i bother reading this bukkake result of a bunch of insignificant peons circle jerking in their respective camps over how correct they are about thier supposed insight into the mind and career of billy corgan?
i’m just in it for the lulz
I’d like to be in touch without somewhere else than here purple pumpkin. Really…
Would it be doable?
i’d like for you to be in touch with a language coach so some day you can come back and take a stab at that thought again
That’s an interesting Bakhtinian voice you’ve created to bring into the dialogic round, Nono.
Yea i hear that lol. It IS quite entertaining but it’s cathartic in a way. I think we were getting somewhere lol. How bout that John Mayer?
i don’t quite know what you’re talking about because i get laid sometimes but i agree!
@xo
Absolutely. I must clarify, I don’t mind Billy being outspoken, I would just like to see him not be so angry and cruel, especially towards those he shared a life with. Honestly, I’m curious to know what he will detail in his new book, but I do believe some things should be left alone and kept sacred. Perhaps his contradictions often come from not being able to express himself and say how he really feels, I think that he often says things in a way that he simply doesn’t mean and he ends up sounding bad. I was aware that he was pressured to continue with the MCIS tour but it is terribly depressing to be reminded that he made such a decision, he almost seemed to be going through the motions like a robot at the time. Stay the course indeed, I know it’s pointless to ponder but I wonder how things would have turned out if he decided to put his life back together instead of burning all of those bridges. I’m not sure how necessary those painful events have really been to his life, he doesn’t seem better because of it.
Regarding his choices during 96, an example if I may, I will admit one misconception I had of him, which dealt with his marriage/divorce. I remember thinking that he simply did not care enough about the people in his life and how selfish he was. Mainly because I remember him being so cruel about it 96/97 and he made a couple of rants about it 2000 at a concert I was at – I believe he said something like, (when introducing muzzle, which was written for his then wife) “she’s in jail now serving years for grievous misuse of my love.” Reading his confessions, while I do still feel like he puts far too much blame on others when it comes to his issues, made me realize how painful and difficult it was for him to deal with the ending of his marriage, that he simply didn’t know how to deal with it. I always chalked it, and many other aspects of his personality, up to him being a selfish ass but I realized that a lot of his anger comes from a deep sense of hurt (although it’s still not the best way to deal with it). So, in a way, it has helped me to better understand him and I’m trying not to be so critical of him. I should, and I do try, to go easy on him but somehow he always manages to say or do something that makes me question his motives and character. Everything from his falling out with his past band members to insulting his nihilist then gf and friends to the way he has been handling SP lately. But, again, when I realize that he is saying these things out of, even if it is sometimes misguided, sense of wrong doing and deep hurt, it is easier to forgive. Billy is certainly all of those things that you’ve mentioned. I suppose, especially with his childhood traumas and extraordinary life, he just looks and deals with the world differently. I understand that he lives his life in front of millions but he could do with being a little bit kinder and little more forgiving, to others and to himself.
yo halo, the war is over you can pack it in. you won!!!
“Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony.”
No harmony for Billy Corgan as of yet, even tho he’s trying to put off that he is.
But hey I think I go back to just listening to music because that’s all that is good from Billy as of late.Well of course opinions differ in that also.I use to think so highly of him.Because of a person that introduce me to BC’s music.And him making it threw about the same things i’ve been threw in life.Maybe 100% worse, if there’s even a a concept, worse then others in their life’s.
It’s to point Billy will never see how beautiful life truly is when your in harmony with all things.I’m not a follow of no cult,just of my own heart. He could do a lot of good in people life’s and he can truly effect and change.It’s a shame really and a let down to abused kid like i was, that had faith in him.
Standing tall doesn’t mean you have to step on somebody else.You can be successful without victimizing other people.
no it’s too late tree_spirit, halo just won ITS OVER
do you guys ever think billy corgan just wakes up and wishes he had?
@Bigpumpkins – I’ve posted my email here before but if you wanna get in touch you can contact me at s0644110@monmouth.edu and we can talk on facebook or somethin b/c I’d like to keep SOME anonymity here.
just realized you can search emails on facebook haaa!
Stab at it? I love knives!
In fact, not opinion, as Molly Ivins said, “I am not anti-gun. I’m pro-knife. Consider the merits of the knife. In the first place, you have to catch up with someone in order to stab him. A general substitution of knives for guns would promote physical fitness. We’d turn into a whole nation of great runners. Plus, knives don’t ricochet. And people are seldom killed while cleaning their knives.”
@purple
Same for me. So yeah I’m gonna find you with that man!
The interview with Melissa Auf Der maur just aired on Quebec tv. She talked about Billy saying he was still a dear friend. About SP: “My favorite all time band” still. It was recorded on thursday so I doubt the show was aware Ginger had left so there was no questions about if Melissa had been considered yet. They talked mostly about “Ooom”, her forthcoming album, out on april 6th.
She’s a proud Montréaler! I like her a lot. Speaks great french too.
194 comments. Wow!
What a loser!
I mean, John Mayer is a great musician, talented, and frankly in my opinion has alot better disposition than Corgan. I mean this guy, always tooting his own horn,(which to me isn’t very much of anything),and then insults a man who actually has a love for the craft and not his own insane ego?! Whats an idiot! Go back to your cult Billy, im sure your happier there.
@ o0alexabelle0o
Wow. Bit harsh eh? Mayer is no saint. Corgan has more talent in one toe nail then Mayer has in his whole body.
Not harsh! Truthful! Corgan wants to elect hisself friggin king of the world…why? Because somewhere in his mind, a little voice is telling him, hes better than majority of artists. John actually expands his horizons when it comes to music, using his love for classical and jazz, ect. Hes not saint, but i can tell you hes more of a SANE person that Corgan is. I mean the guy is wacked out of his mind! Isnt his name like stardust now? WHAT IS THAT DUDE?!
@ o0alexabelle0o
He IS better then the majority! John Mayer sits around singing the same crap over and over again. Hes no different then the rest of the crappy main stream artist floating around these days. And by the way Billy Corgan’s name is still Billy Corgan.
John Mayer, first of all, is a musician FIRST. He plays many MANY instruments, and writes his own music! But not even him. What about all the other groups who dont get the recognition they deserve, are BETTER THAN Corgan, and yet are down to earth. Sonic Youth, Radio Head, ect. Hes a sick man, and honestly I hope he gets the help he needs. Although, Ive never heard someone getting cured of “jerk.”
Radio Head!? Radio Head!? Radio Head can go die! Oh and the instrument thing… Billy plays every thing but drums! Billy was writing his own music and playing all the instruments, and had albums that where going PLATINUM before Mayer even knew what a guitar was!!
Exactly my point! There is a saying, “A gentleman (or lady), knows when to leave the party.” That goes for Billy too! Hes been around so long, and yet doesnt have the humbleness one should possess after such a long time. He doesnt know when to let well alone, instead of proclaim hisself master of the musical world.Theres a point where you need to grow up, and hes what, in his 40′s?! And hasnt gotten there yet?! I mean how can he criticize someone like that on no solid grounds?! Hes a jealous person, and he does this to all people it seems he comes in contact with. Someone who IS such a star, such an awesome artist, wouldnt he know by this point, what to say and what NOT to say to an interviewer?!
AND RADIOHEAD IS AWESOME!
I agree with you that Billy could be use a little less ego, but hes is am AMAZING artist that still has a lot left to offer the music world! Have you listened to his latest stuff? Its awesome!( dont care what they say Widow Wake My Mind Rocked) Unlike Mayer who to me seems burnt out already, b/cs hes no where near the level of musician Corgan is!
Okay, i can agree with you there. I do enjoy some of Billy’s music, but I expect more from someone with such a musical talent. Look, Billy Corgan is just like you and me and so is Mayer. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. He doesnt have to the right to put a verdict on everyones life. And Corgan honestly, has become more known for his crazy antics and selfishness than for his music these days. You dont get anywhere by stepping on toes, you just dont.
That is true. I cant argue it. Billy is just going through one of his crazy moments, and hopefully he’ll be out if it soon. OK, missy text me. :)
YAY! Tell your mom i say hi! <3
Radio Head!!!1
Wow.
But come on, what great artist ISN’T nuts? And you’re using Thom Yorke as an example of the contrary? I forgot how sane he is too. The music speaks for itself.
and as much as I adore Radiohead (one word), I think the comparisons need to stop, or at least be argued better. Now off to organic chemistry, uhhhhhhg!
“Look, Billy Corgan is just like you and me and so is Mayer.”
You have failed to notice one of the basic truths of life: The inequality of men.
You seemed to have missed the point too! Because, no one man is better than another. Maybe richer, more known, but that doesn’t make them better, it makes you just what I said, RICHER, FAMOUS, but not better. The point I was making, which you obviously overlooked was, he has no right to judge others and their lives. He, just like Mayer, is a musical artist. We all have our opinions, including them, and we can, but that doesnt mean we can say them, KNOWING that it will be seen, on record, for the world. He has an ego problem people!
Inequality of men?! Whats our problem?! Just because it may exist doesnt mean it fair or right. Maybe you should think about that, yeah?
You talk about Corgan judging Mayer, but aren’t you judging him just as bad if not worse??? “he has no right to judge others and their lives.” What gives you the right??? I say this with all the love and respect in the world by the way :)
Life’s not fair. I thought everyone knew that.
You know what, you might be right about me, but guess what? Doesn’t mean im wrong about him. And doesnt even mean hes wrong about Mayer but you, as a human, learn to censor yourself, and give respect to your fellow humans. Like im going to do now, Billy Corgan is a human being just like me, and i wish him all happiness in world. Even if is a egomaniac.
AND with all the love in the world? YOU DONT EVEN KNOW ME! XD
“Even if is a egomaniac.”? Learn to spell. You are such a hypocrite! Practice what you preach, and shove a sock in it!
Yes, I forgot, no one dare misspell something against Billy! Because that ofcourse the reason we come here! GRAMMAR LESSONS! And…you know…not having opinions or anything. Thanks for letting me know. ;)
And I will! Thanks! See, what just happened there. I took criticism, and i accepted it.
Maybe you should get Billy here and give him the same advice, lets see what he says, yeah?
You are being sarcastic, rude and hypocritical. And definitely not accepting criticism. This is a BLOG ABOUT THE SMASHING PUMPKINS, and Billy is a big part of the SMASHING PUMPKINS, so if you don’t like them then why are you here???
Does this blog have a limit for only happy, bright comments? Or can you actually have an opinion against them? Because im not sure. And im only being this way, to defend myself! Personal attach on my grammar and opinions gives me a little leeway to be TAD sarcastic, dont you think? And i heard about this from my friend. We both think Corgan is NUTS! She told me about the chance to get my opinions out there about Corgan and The Pumpkins. I hope not everyone is as small minded as you here. xD
I understand Corgan can be a judgmental jerk sometimes. That’s something i have come to know and accept. When i read the RS article i spent most of the time thinking how stupid Billy sounded. I get it, i sort of get you. But what i don’t get is how you expect you be greeted with open arms when you are acting the exact same way. HMM???
Look I understand what your saying. We all get a bit heated over our opinions. And yes the RS magazine article I heard was HORRIFIC! So atleast we can agree and move on.
Ok. This was fun, lets do it again sometime! Oh and my mom says hi back.
HAH! LOL. We deffinately should! And sweet, im guessing shes a cool chick!
Ya, most days.
o0alexabelle0o -
“John Mayer, first of all, is a musician FIRST. He plays many MANY instruments, and writes his own music! But not even him…I mean how can he criticize someone like that on no solid grounds?! Hes a jealous person, and he does this to all people it seems he comes in contact with.
Where is Your solid ground? I have a slight feeling you’re not that familiar with the band and you don’t really make a strong argument though I’m guessing English isn’t your first language.
Gv – You are absolutely right, all men are NOT equal and it’s absurd to think so. I don’t even think respect should be given equally because it’s earned. Does one love everyone the same? I am for equal rights completely though.
Guys, anyone who has read the whole article can see how bad it is. Regardless of if Billy contacted RS or not, they did not give him the article he was looking for. It has as many, if not more words from Jimmy, then are about Jimmy. Same thing goes for pretty much everything else in the article. He tried to give advice to Mayer, from the point of view of someone who learned from previous situations similar to his.
Honestly I have to say that if there is any guarentees in this world, it is that SP antifans will overreact to a degree that dwarfs Billy’s own overeactions. (There’s my overreaction for the day)
TSP/Corgan Forever!
Radio Head!!!!1
yes and unintelligent billy apologists will over react to any negative opinion about billy corgan. I’m done apologizing. I don’t owe (some) of you morons shit. It takes a seriously low IQ to defend this man and his current music, and truly believe you are right.
take that, nimmies.
You’re such a moron Adam. What is absolutely incredible is that there are still people to take your side. What a disappointing world.
With all due respect, you are a freaking low-life man.
call me a low life all you want, but it doesn’t change the FACT that I am better than you.
and since some of us ascribe to all men not being equal, I now have a new policy for my argument approach:
the only way to interact on a coherent level with a retard is to act like a retard.
You really think you are better than me!?
MOuahahah
MOuahahahAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH
Amazing. They say you’re less stupid when you know you’re stupid. Sadly you don’t even have that break.
lol some of you guys are too easy.
@Adam you just talk to talk dont you.
Oh, come one, Adam! I won´t label myself a BC apologist, but I still do respect his music. I am glad for Teargarden. It´s not what it used to be, but it doesn´t mean it must automatically be worse, it´s just different, that´s all. If you really believe that you are so much better than the rest of us, why do you “lower” yourself to even talk to us? I admired you for some time. You certainly have a certain amount of intelligence and you are able to make interesting points sometimes, but why the heck do you waste so much energy on attempts at imposing your will (which you believe to be superior or so it would seem) upon everybody who doesn´t agree with you? If BC is such a low class musician now according to your persuasion, I´d really like to know, whether you ever have created anything so exciting and inspiring as he did in the past (and continues up to now, as I believe)? I haven´t seen any proof that would back up your alleged superiority so far. Why does a man so brilliant as you claim yourself to be even bother talking to retards? Retards, being limited in their mental capabilities, can´t understand thoughts of a genius. And since you spend so much time trying to change the unchangeable… well, let´s just say that it questions the arguments you presented to support your superior status.
Sorry, I had to do that. You are pushing things a bit too far this time. Even though I don´t always agree with big (for example), I most certainly wouldn´t venture that far as to label him (or anyone else) as a mentally challenged, it would oppose the basic sense of politeness, a fully integrated part of my being (or so I hope :)).
We really should learn to respect one another and not to dismiss thoughts of another, cause they are not in absolute correlation with our own; that would be a much better approach now, wouldn´t it?
marek i’m just trolling certain people right now and they’re biting. from me to you i don’t really think that i’m better than anyone. but some here have decided to label me as such because they had no other way to argue back besides inciting drama.
now this argument about billy’s mediocrity is not about my creativity compared to his. no, i have not created something on such a successful level as his, but there are plenty of artists that i have listened to that do rise above him, and i am aware and conscious enough to make those comparisons. Again, it HAS nothing to do with me and what i’ve achieved. but some who disagree so harshly like to play that card, and it’s cheap. welll, what have you done on billy’s level??!? here’s your answer: nada. doesn’t change my opinion on him.
and where did i directly claim i was brilliant? please marek, don’t start acting like the hardcore apologists and start putting unspoken words in my mouth.
Adam, you’re just never really adressing the ultimate issue which is
: why are you here in the end?
that’s such a lame argument too.. ‘why are you hear if you hate the band?’ this might come as a shock to you, but i don’t hate the band. i’m not going to get into the details of it, but i have a right to disagree with some of the things the band decides to do. i don’t have to put billy corgan on the highest possible pedestal to enjoy what this band does.
so in short, same reason you are here.
and again, THE ISSUE IS NOT ME. i came in here to talk about billy corgan and the current state of his music and career.. however some of you liked to make this argument about ME, because it seems you are more fascinated with me than you are the actual subject at hand. so in that case, maybe you should ask yourself, why are YOU HERE in the end. Fans like myself are going to be around no matter where you go. And we do enjoy discussing this band still because it still means a great deal to us. you can insultingly dismiss it as pathetic/low-lifeish all you want, but at the end of the day you’re throwing the same kind of stones you accuse those specific fans of throwing. Think my voice is too loud? go bring your argument to netphoria and see how you get treated there.
Hey Adam, you know that thread on netphoria that begins with the MCIS era alternate version of rocket? The one where you post two videos from MCIS rio and an MCIS era Beautiful?
I just read through it/watched it…(thank you so much for posting those videos) I haven’t had that feeling in a long time. That feeling of THE pumpkins. Watching Jimmy pound the drums and sounding like fucking thunder and just…just the entire band as a unit; that’s THE Pumpkins to me.
My point…do I have a point? Basically I’d like it if you didn’t antagonize those that don’t understand that you get a kick out of trolling, it clutters the posts and is only enjoyable for you…also some people probably get a kick out of the new incarnation of the Pumpkins as much as I did out of watching those videos on netphoria and I think it’s a little shitty that you spend some of your posts trying to convince them that they shouldn’t; this isn’t some bullshit about opinions, this is how your seemingly incessant need to reaffirm your belief that the Billy Experience is not the Smashing Pumpkins is irritating and unnecessary – no fucking shit that Billy is not THE smashing pumpkins – nothing since the reformation of the band has touched me like those old songs, but I’m interested to see what Billy does next for no other real reason than the fact that he’s earned my trust over the years and your self appointed devils advocate shtick is really tired now, this notion of Billy Cultists and sheeple and all that crap is condescending and dull, you know as well as I do that it doesn’t fucking matter because we have the old records, if you don’t want to watch the so called “train wreck” in slow motion then you can always put on Pisces Iscariot or something.
Yeah, I agree with Sunkissed.
You’re in a pitfall and a vicious circle Adam. Now even if the music to come is great, you won’t be able to enjoy it because you chose the side of those who hate all from Billy now. I doubt this will change, reading your comments about the 3 songs up to now and stuff.
Poor you.
by the way, my post isn’t in response to what you just said, you posted it whilst I was typing up my comment to you.
It was just a general feeling I got from watching the videos on netphoria and I thought of you…
ok,
michael.
oh my god big pumpkins get the point man. adam this adam that. how do you know if i will or will not like the songs to come? you don’t, so quit with this ‘pitiful you’ vicious cycle crap. once again making it about an attack on me. such a childish way to stand up for your point and what you believe in.
im not here to convince or ruin anything for you, you take that in and make it your own experience. if my words ruin your experience, then ignore what i have to say and you spend the time listening to the music. again, i’m here to discuss the topic at hand and i think it’s a good dialogue to have. why are you people on my ass, too? i’m nt the only one here expressing said opinions. hell get on jillysps ass for that last podcast where she didn’t praise the hell out of billy.
‘poor you’ wah wah wah. god look at how YOU type from the outside and maybe you’ll understand why i get a kick out of antagonizing you.
Yeah, sure, you’re just a nice fella. Coming here to have a good peaceful dialogue with the people. That’s exactly you.
just for the record, it was a person (andy) that opposed my view that called me a name first.
Yes, you are the victim around here. I know.
let’s make a deal BP. Since you can’t seem to have a civil discussion with someone that opposes your view, nor can you differentiate between fact and opinion, nor can you find an appropriate way to position yourself in an argument without resorting to personal attacks, how about you and I just resort to name calling? I believe we will have more fun. I know it certainly makes you feel better.
Just do as you wish. You always write any insignificance that pops in your head anyway.
insignificant to you because you can’t retort it without acting like a child.
Sure.
waita waita waita second.. the ‘why are you here if you don’t like pumpkins’ argument, poor handle of english language, hiding childish quips as reasonable dialogue.. sounds all too familiar. Bigpumpkins.. are you… GAUPHIL?!?!?
Well, yes, of course. I thought it was clear by now!
Although neither “bigpumpkins” or “gauphil” are my actual real names obviously.
no, sorry it wasn’t. i only identify people here by the names i remember. why change identities? everything is making sense now though. carry on.
I always post everywhere on blogs with that name “bigpumpkins”. From now on I’m just gonna use it on here too.
+1 @adam for absolute hilarity:
“waita waita waita second.. the ‘why are you here if you don’t like pumpkins’ argument, poor handle of english language, hiding childish quips as reasonable dialogue.. sounds all too familiar. Bigpumpkins.. are you… GAUPHIL?!?!?”
So fucking funny, I would never have put two and two together like that, *tips hat to Adam*.
made ya look ;)
[...] in 2007. Is Billy Corgan trying to align himself retroactively with Pitchfork and the NME against Rolling Stone, PopMatters, and [...]
[...] beautiful, beautiful contradiction” from Pumpkins chief Billy Corgan (Corgan himself being “a walking, living, breathing, contradiction” in Schiller’s judgment). Share:Like this:LikeBe the first to like this [...]