Mark Tulin is playing bass for the Smashing Pumpkins. 11:55 pm // Saturday, September 19, 2009
Posted by jjb in ginger reyes pooley, mark tulin, teargarden by kaleidyscope.trackback
By this I’m not saying Ginger Reyes Pooley is not ‘the Pumpkins’ bassist.’ Describe her current situation as ‘maternity leave’ if you like, and speculate as to her involvement with the band’s future tours or studio work all you want. But right now, Mark Tulin is laying down bass tracks that we’ll hear on Teargarden by Kaleidyscope:
If you believe Wikipedia (and it has to be at least close), Tulin was born in 1948…which would make him three times as old as rhythm-section partner Mike Byrne.
Yeah, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I’ve been thinking that the wikipedia article should only list Billy under band members, even at the bottom of the page, because it doesn’t really make sense that Lisa Harriton is considered a band member and Mark Tulin is not. I’ve wondered lately if the Pumpkins lineup can now be defined as “Billy/Mark/Mike” with some sprinklings of the other Spirits members here and there, which seems to be the mentality of the band going into the record. I think the big point, though, is that Billy no longer wants his fans to think of the band as a constant lineup but more a spirit and a body of work.
I like this more inclusive approach. It’s more organic. And I’m starting to wish he’d also take that approach with his own back catalogue. Frankly, I think it would be pretty interesting if he played, say, ‘Of a Broken Heart’ or ‘Honestly’ at a Pumpkins show.
Jesus, ‘Love Lies in Ruin’ was a great song…
^ Agreed, and it’s frustrating that the studio version we have is just that short fragment on the Zwan DVD.
i think this is good.
SP’s biggest weakness has been that they dont play much as band to make/record songs except perhaps MCIS era. even SD/MCIS era, Billy plays other people’s parts abit too much except drums. it takes away some sort of dynamics from Billy’s musics in quite a few occasions imo. typical was Zeitgeist…that record was just BC and JC…
of course having concrete bandmembers is sweet, but it’s often difficult…so when you cant, why not have various members flexibly. hope BC realized that he needs other peoples helps to lift his music…
well..despite everything(absence of JC and BC’s cult thing etc), hope the outcome will be good.
Another billy corgan solo album, please do not call it a pumpkins album even if its going to be free.
CAN WE GET SOME GEEK USA LIVE PLEASE! and snot tear drops and scopes
so far every member recording on this record were members of spirits, and they should really just approach this record with that mentality and call it spirits in the sky.
and don’t give me this ‘billy is pumpkins’ argument. yeah, he was the leader, but he was a part of the whole. he didn’t write the drum part to tonight tonight for example. and silverfuck. and superchrist. jellybelly. geek usa. with every light. home. united states. stellar. march hare. as rome burns. etc etc etc etc. he didn’t write the guitar solo in zero, etc etc etc.
Ahhh Adam. Get over it. It’s getting old. Really old.
That IS SP, want it or not.
1948? Jesus Christ, he’s as old as my dad. FUCK YOU PITCHFORKMEDIA FOR LEAVING OUT THE 61 YEAR OLD BASSIST DEMOGRAPHIC!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY THAT THOM YORK IS A BETTER MUSICIAN THAN ANY BASSIST BORN BEFORE 1950!!!!! DON’T YOU GET IT?!? IT’S ABOUT LIGHT AND LOVE AND HOPE AND STUFF!!!!!!
it’s not SP. this is not an abstract concept, it’s pretty simple.
perpetuate denial all you want.
I don’t care what anyone says, Bob Bert wrote the drum track on Death Valley ’69, and without him there is no Sonic Youth. Steve Shelley is nothing to me. And Nevermind just isn’t a real Nirvana album without Chad Channing. It’s just Kurt’s solo album.
wow, for the “cynical” ones out there, it’s very obvious that you are merely consumers of music and are struggling to understand the artistic nature of this piece of work that Billy is leading. As as artist his job is to challenge the thinking of his audience. Please stop trying to lock Billy into a box with 3 or 4 other musicians. The PEOPLE don’t make The Smashing Pumpkins; it is the MUSIC that makes it The Smashing Pumpkins. That has always been the case. The band has never been limited to only 4 people. Sometimes making music takes more than that. [what would Sgt Pepper have been without George Martin?]. Every album you do with a producer, you are in essence adding another person to the creative thought of the band. And adding musicians in the studio and on stage does not ruin the band or make it into a different band. Even for those of you who see the name Smashing Pumpkins as being synonymous with the person Billy Corgan, do you really expect him to lock himself into a studio by himself with no other human input and interaction. [not to say that he hasn't done that before] I think Billy is more mature as a person than ever before, and he welcomes ideas for great creativity. He is humble enough to realize that the band is bigger than him. I seriously doubt that any of you will be complaining after the 44 songs are given to us.
Adam,
So what? Look, when you download the songs, just rename the MP3 file “Spirits in the Sky”. Voila! And then make sure you rename all of your Adore tracks, and rename all of your Zwan tracks as “Smashing Pumpkins”.
Also, next time you feel like having the “it’s not Smashing Pumpkins anymore!” argument, please build yourself a time machine, go back to about 2006 or 2007, and point your browser to http://www.netphoria.org. They’re fucking awesome dudes over there, you’ll get on great!
i’ll call the zwan tracks zwan.
adore still had 75% of the smashing pumpkins in it. but even that was a drastic difference and darcy herself was pissed that he wasn’t calling it a solo record. he still perpetuated it as an SP record though.
i just don’t see it as necessary to call this SP. simple as that. no i don’t expect him to not interact with other humans, but when he does he should call it a different name. this whole new thing is obviously under a completely new and different spirit and it just doesn’t seem necessary for him to give it a title that has so much baggage behind it.. almost seems negative. the name smashing pumpkins, i feel, doesn’t truly reflect where he is as an artist today. it reflects his desire to continue the brand in order to boost his publicity, because fuck he knows damn well going under any other name doesn’t bring him jack as far as record sales and concert ticket sales are concerned.
From what I’ve heard so far, a lot of the new music sounds a lot like previous SP. It still has the same spirit, the same musical philosophy, and the same kind of sound. It was always Billy’s creative vision, and as long as he is there it will continue to be. Jimmy was/is an amazing drummer, but he was not the creative force of the band. Just a really good tool for Corgan to use as part of his vision(I’m speaking entirely on a musical level; I know they were friends) . I’m sure if he called it ‘Billy Corgan’ and put out 44 songs that sounded like SP songs, people would be like what the fuck this it’s just SP again, why is he calling it something different?
As to Adore, are you serious? So every time one person leaves a band, it should be re-named? I’m sure if that thought were followed you wouldn’t know the names of the majority of bands you love.
As for the comment for publicity, of course he wants as many people as possible to hear his work. Sure maybe some of it is financially motivated, but as an artist I would want as many people as possible to hear my work. If I had a choice between Spirits in the Sky(made only as a tribute, and to test the more mediocre SP songs) and The Smashing Pumpkins to showcase my art, I mean there’s really no question. Hes built that name for well over a decade, why should he have to start over again?
Gish=100%
Siamese Dream=100%
Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness=100%
Adore=75%
Machina=100%
Mary Star of the Sea=50%
The Future Embrace=25% (except for that one song)
Zeitgeist=50%
Teargarden and Blahblahblah= 25%
The controversy over the name can be summed up by the fact that when Zwan started out, they got ripped up and down by the media for simply being the Smashing Pumpkins (“it’s Billy and Jimmy, who everyone knows are the musical force, so why not just call it SP!?”, they all cried). Then they come back as the Pumpkins without D’arcy and James and everyone cries, “What makes this different than Zwan!? It’s just Billy and Jimmy with some other people!!” No matter what he does he’s gonna catch shit for it.
If Billy can’t continue with the name of his band, being the principle songwriter, singer and musician, there is no other possible circumstance under which any other band could continue on having lost any original member. How many bands are actually operating with all their original members? There are several that have replaced their lead singers who have caught way less shit than Billy has for basically continuing on with what he’s always done.
Could you imagine if James, D’arcy and Jimmy had reformed the Pumpkins with a replacement singer(Hi Alice in Chains!)? I sometimes wonder if that group wouldn’t have caught a tenth of the flak Billy has. After all, that’d still be 75% of the Pumpkins, right? As if Billy’s contributions can be boiled down to a simple 1/4 share.
If that band went up on stage and played the hits and didn’t have the temerity to actually make new music (the 20th anniversary tour taught us, “fans” don’t want NEW songs, just 1979) no one would bat an eye.
That’s really the issue with the band. There are vastly more fans who have always just wanted the band to keep on making Siamese Dream and MCIS then there are fans who appreciated the albums that followed. And if they weren’t going to do that then they would’ve preferred they did nothing.
I have no doubt that the surprising positivity surrounding the announcement of Teargarden is the Mellon Collie vibe around the whole thing, right down to the wistful title and artwork; not to mention the promise to return to the Pumpkins roots musically.
I’m actually surprised that Billy hasn’t gotten accused of trying to resurrect that era. You know why he hasn’t? Because that’s what those former fans have been waiting for since 1998.
My advice is to just listen to the music. If you like it fine, if not, does it really matter what name it’s put out under?
I completely agree with the first paragraph of Skullivan’s post above… I distinctly remember the first time I heard “Honestly” on the radio, the DJ prefaced it in a condescending voice saying “it’s not Smashing Pumpkins, but you’d never know it.” With all of the changes that have occured since 2000 (or 1996 if you really want to get into it), I’ve come to consider all SP and members’ other projects as just part of the greater SP catalog. Everything Billy Corgan does sounds like it could be Smashing Pumpkins, so it might as well be called Smashing Pumpkins.
No one’s ever gonna agree with the issue of whether or not this is legitimately Smashing Pumpkins. But I think, at least, that the presence of Kerry Brown brings in some credibility–a guy who was involved in the band “back in the day”, who had helped produce some older SP, and even played drums on an old SP song. It looks like Kerry is paying a lot of attention to detail here and is focusing on getting a really unique vintage sound, and that’s exciting.
And Skullivan, as I understand it, the “fans just wanting 1979 on the 20th anniversary tour” wasn’t the issue at all. It was more the fact that the setlists were still very similar to the previous tour….the whole kazoo thing…..the Set The Controls thing…..and quite opposite of “just wanting 1979″, many fans thought that since it was an anniversary tour, they might get to hear some deeper cuts like Tristessa, Bury Me, Rhinoceros, La Dolly Vita, Geek USA, Frail & Bedazzled, Pissant, Jellybelly, Thru The Eyes Of Ruby…..
(I want to stress that I’m not saying I agree or disagree). You could certainly argue that they did bust out with Bodies and Soma (and that neat little tease of Suffer). But I can see the point of the disappointed fan who felt like, at a 20th Anniversary Show, 2 or 3 more vintage Pumpkins tunes could’ve been played in the time slot the very long Set The Controls/kazoo/whatever thing was played.
Once again, it’s something that no one’s ever gonna agree on.
And Skullivan, the Zwan thing is a great point, for sure.
to skulivans first paragraph.. yeah case in point but now jimmy is gone period.. so what does that leave us with.
also there are plenty of bands operating with the same original members. Radiohead is a great example.. and they still sell out concerts and make great records. they figured out a way to get along, keep it together and still make consistently great music.
as for the rest of what you typed.. tl;dr. maybe i’ll get to it.
I certainly wish it could be the original 4 members. 2nd choice would be to at least have Jimmy, because even if he didn’t write the songs, his unique drumming was part of the signature style of SP.
At this point hopefully the new music will be good, not much else to do but wait & see.
For a rock band label to keep its legitimity, I’ve always said there had to be at least the songwriter, the main singer and the lyricist. Billy happens to be all that. I don’t care if these duties are taken care of by 1, 2 or 3 people, as long as this stands, the band can stand. Actually, the fact that SP is SO incredibly productive is largely due to the fact that one man does it all.
I trust. Still.
(being sarcastically objective) so whenever billy plays a solo song, ranging from pre-gish to now, he should call that song a different name and the rest smashing pumpkins according to some of us? so on mellon collie, stumbeliene should not be conisdered smashing pumpkins since not all 4/4 were on it or not even 2/4? (I dont’ know who all was on stumbeliene i assume it’s just billy. that would be consisten with adam right? I’m not saying that Adam doesn’t have a point, or a personal preference it should be called instead. So stumbeliene should no longer be called “smashing pumpkins”. What should we call it?
and i know i butchered the title, not spending time to look it up and build my credibility, sorry.
well then maybe billy should just make an entire record of stumbleine esque acoustic songs and label it smashing pumpkins without any other new members involved then (so get rid of tulin, byrne, and when he makes record with them call is spirits in the sky).. then this would all make sense?
christ i’m sick of the stumbleine argument. a one off solo acoustic song (a demo placed on MCIS at the last minute as filler that was intended to be a full band song) that shatters any notion of the importance of the other 4 members that actually contributed to the SP’s wide catalogue.
christ how old were the majority of you people when this band was in the midst of it’s golden era, say 1995? serious question.
i’m curious, are you basing the quality of the current pumpkins incarnation on a crappy demo that was produced in 1995? that’s is what you want to base your argument on?
and stumbleine. what should we call it? how about a billy acoustic demo that never got gelled into the context of the pumpkins and was thrown on a final record at the last minute.
here’s MY point.
all other songs on MCIS > Stumbleine.
hot damn
Stumbleine > Take Me Down
Is track 1 on MCIS just Billy solo as well?
Oh my God, you guys……
I for one, love Stumbleine, and most other Billy solo acoustic songs, actually more than many of their full band songs. I know, that puts me in the minority, but I really wish we would get more solo acoustic/folkier and Adore-style electronics from Billy rather than more rawkin’.
And all you guys bringing up these exceptions is kind of off topic and ridiculous. It is demonstrating rather inflexible thinking. Just because the Pumpkins started out as a four-person band didn’t mean that they were confined to using all four members, without additional performances or other input from any other musicians, on every single song on every album to keep the name “The Smashing Pumpkins.” That may not be what is being argued by the people above, but it is the kind of mindset in the arguments of the people bickering at each other here. That is not fair to the Pumpkins, or any band.
Any band is a collaboration of musicians. With SP, Billy is clearly the leader in both songwriting, artistic vision, and leadership. It may be hard to take Billy’s talks about the Pumpkins being a “concept” at face value, but if you think about it, the band has gone through many stages of musicians, all united by Billy’s overarching vision. People come and go; some people contribute to the musical performance aspects, some people contribute to the artistic aspects of the band, some people (e.g. James) write and perform their own songs.
For now, it appears as if the band consists of Billy (as always); their drummer, Mike Byrne; Mark Tulin *currently* playing bass (it sounds as if Ginger will be back eventually, and, who knows, someone else may end up playing bass for them, or Billy would take up the bass); and a number of people on guitar:Billy for now, possibly Dave Navarro, Jeff when he’s done with Lassie Foundation, any number of other people later. The way that Billy has been sounding like, he’s willing for any number of his collaborators to come in and work with him at various points. Currently, though, the Pumpkins as a collective are working towards producing Billy’s project, Teargarden by Kaleidyscope.
So, to put it simply, the Pumpkins are a group of musicians and artists united by Billy Corgan and his artistic vision.
One last side note regarding the previous members… right now, Billy is trying to move his band forward, leaving behind whatever ‘legacy’ or even ‘tarnished legacy’ the Pumpkins had and pushing forward as a band in the present. So I think it is best that we don’t weigh down his current pursuit with the baggage of the past while it has barely begun, and to wait and see what happens :)
i really like it when billy plays bass.
@kirk the pug
I totally agree with you. I would like to speak english well enough to put it so clearly into words but we think the same. Really.
kirk the pug… rewriting history to help the present make sense.
to quote netphoria:
“all 4 original members were important. but billy corgan and jimmy chamberlin were the central theme of this band. now that relationship is over and broken. pumpkins are no more. that SIMPLE. this is not pumpkins. i’m sure byrne can bring his own shit to the table. but not on the pumpkins level. it’s that simple. this crap should not be sold under the pumpkins moniker. that’s my issue here. it’s like billy replaced a long term awesome fuck with a short term relapse fuck. and it wont last. this is the real issue here. it’s dirty and wrong and smashing pumpkins are no longer the same without these two fucking together.”
and
“i mean it’s like he’s replaced his hot long love affair with some young hot fuck that will not last more than 6 months. understand now? it’s all in the passion, not the lust.
it didn’t work with zeitgeist. then it’s fucking officially over. don’t try to mimmick that passion with a quick fuck. it WILL NOT LAST. it’s over. get over it it;s over its over.”
“this crap should not be sold under the pumpkins moniker.”
Hmm, maybe he knows where I can get the new album, I wasn’t aware it was out yet.
As for all that romance shit that tries to appeal to your emotions to convince you why it’s wrong… Jimmy and Corgan weren’t together for THAT long before Gish, and yet it doesn’t seem like an album built on “lust” instead of “passion”. Even if it were(whatever the fuck that means) its still an awesome album.
Reasons given why it isn’t the pumpkins anymore:
- Billy replaced a long term drummer with a new one (jimmy quit, hard to do otherwise)
- It’s dirty
- It’s wrong
- It won’t be the same (neither was MCIS and Adore, or Gish and SD)
- Its all in the lust now, there’s no passion
- Zeitgeist didn’t work, so its over
- It won’t last
Where is the logic? Almost everything here was emotionally based.
A lot of the music after Zeitgeist, including that made after Jimmy left, is a lot more under the Pumpinks realm than the majority of Zeitgeist was. How could that be, if Jimmy was in Zeitgeist? Maybe because Corgan is what makes the band, and it is dependent on him whether or not the songs are Smashing Pumpkins material, not on Jimmy or whether he is even present.
Will the Pumpkins sound different with the new drummer? Yes. Would they sound different anyway if Jimmy were still present? Yes. Will the difference in drummers be enough that the new music cannot be considered as Pumpkins material? I very highly doubt it.
We’ll have to wait for the new album to start coming out, but I don’t see how people can just decide that it isn’t SP anymore without even hearing the new music. If it comes out and sounds as good and in the same kind of realm as SD, will you still be bitching about the name? Who really cares that he uses the Smashing Pumpkins name anyway? Does it destroy the old music? No. The only reason I can think of why people would care is that they’re worried that they will start hating the band because of the new material, or it will be embarrassing to like SP. That’s really your own insecurities and no one elses problem.
@smiling politely
Great arguments. Only…. Zeitgeist was great and a perfect comeback album for the SP label. ;-)
I really can’t understand why Adam and some others take it so personnal and so bad. Let the music speak. Period. I’d rather have any incarnation of SP(Well given Billy is a part of it, haha) than no SP at all. Geez it’s not like amazing bands like that were running the streets.
Yeah agreed. I wasn’t trying to slight Zeitgeist, I don’t love it but I like it. I just felt that a lot of the trademark SP stuff (atmospheric tension, unfiltered emotion, slower songs, great guitar tone, pauses and interludes in songs to create tension: the quiet to loud to quiet) were traded in for pure Bombast almost throughout. It seems like lately they’ve been returning to a more SP ‘feel’. The strong emotional content, how some songs can pick you up and others throw you down, is really what makes SP great for me, something I can’t find in most any other bands. The only way I can think to explain this well is between SD and Adore. Wildly different sounds, but there was still a commonality, I think that has a lot to do with the emotion and the ‘envelop-the-atmosphere-in-sound’ style. That’s what always drew me to them, an in Zeitgeist I think that was lost. I didn’t get that from it, it felt like they were playing more to their stereotype. It was a great rock record but not a great Pumpkins record in my opinion. Some of the newer stuff, it seems to me like hes getting back to that something I can’t describe, that makes me connect to the song on a higher level than “wow that riff is so fucking loud and awesome”. Awesome riffs and bombast have always been part of the equation and I love it, but I missed the other side.
he smiling did you not listen to any of the anniversary tour material, where JC was present? Superchrist, March Hare, Rome Burns, 99 Floors, Owatta, Song for A Song, Gossamer, etc etc, were some of the most SP sound material to come out of them since 2007. much more SP than the newer stuff he’s been writing (spirits material).
Hey adam did you not read what I said closely enough?
“A lot of the music after Zeitgeist, including that made after Jimmy left”
“including”, as in not limited to.
What do you have to say about the zeitgeist reference? I make a huge argument and you try to pick a small part in the middle of it, misread it, and then try to refute what you incorrectly thought I was saying.
“Smashing Pumpkins” existed before Corgan knew Iha, D’Arcy, or Chamberlin. So why shouldn’t it persist now that they’re gone?
“i’ll call the zwan tracks zwan.
adore still had 75% of the smashing pumpkins in it. but even that was a drastic difference and darcy herself was pissed that he wasn’t calling it a solo record. he still perpetuated it as an SP record though.”
You seem to have a pretty inconsistent and rather confusing rule system worked out for determining what does or does not constitute “The Smashing Pumpkins” to a degree you find satisfying.
And by the logic you apply to Adore, Corgan’s been pulling this shit for eleven years, now. Isn’t it time you got over it, one way or the other?
@smiling politely
First I love your nickname. I am actually happy that one of the most memorable and good joke off the Simpsons(There are LOTW though given The Simpsons are a monument) is related to my favorite band.
Second, I like the way you describe Zeitgeist and I agree with you. Although I thought “Ma belle”, “Stellar”, “That’s the way”, “Neverlost” between others had that “SP feel” you are relating to. But still, as a whole, you described the SP fan base feelings toward the album quite well!
I will say that since the residency songs and still now the SP feel is totally back. As much since Jimmy left as when he was still on board.
How can some long time fans not realize that. It’s like they don’t analyse facts. Billy with whoever.
@drbenway
brilliant, I’d have to believe “smashing pumpkins” existed before them too. Corgan did say, when he tried to do projects outside of naming it the smashing pumpkins, he felt he had to counter himself. Since the smashing pumpkins was him incarnate ( he feels) when he does side projects he tries to create something that’s not real to him. Keep the name. Along with that, it’s going to get more recognition and in this time, that’s very good since I believe more than ever the public and record labels control the music. I believe when we look back at this current decade, we will see a lot of good bands with no great bands because of this.
“I make a huge argument and you try to pick a small part in the middle of it, misread it, and then try to refute what you incorrectly thought I was saying.”
which is what it’s like arguing on my side. so many points i’ve made that a lot of you fail to look over, so you pick on small details to help support your side of the argument.
this argument of ‘well you haven’t heard the new album so how do you know it’s not going to sound like SP??’ well… neither have you! so how can you be so confident that it will? my confidence stems on the fact that Jimmy will not be drumming on the record. sure, billy wrote a lot of james and darcy’s parts, and played them, but how many of jimmy’s parts did BC write and play? zero. you can’t mistake how important jimmy is to the sound of this band, throughout all of the different eras.
your zeitgesit point? it’s not a good one. that’s why i didn’t bother commenting on it. a lot of the zeitgeist material was written to directly rip off a lot of the old, more rock sounds of the band. I remember hearing the record for the first time and thinking, hell this sounds like some of the types of riffs we would have heard in pastichio medley. Tarantula? that main riff is a knock off of the riff played in Ugly. United States? a hybrid of silverfuck and xyu. Starz? sounds like what would have ended up on the BWBW single, on billy and jimmy wrote it. Neverlost? could have been on any pumpkins record. Doomsday and 7 shades? more rock in the vein of bodies or other zero single material, with a bit of JC Complex style drumming (7 shades). Come On Let’s Go? Very similar rhythmically to zero. you want me to break down the rest of the record?
it sounded like a record where the two tried to pick up from where they left, make something less artful and more simple, to allow themselves to grow and progress. and then they started to grow again, into something that had to potential to be absolutely monsterous. The material they were doing, actually, to me, seemed to signify some progress into some newer territory (the world music influence on march hare with latin esque drumming from jimmy? like damn!! the psychedelic free improvs?). then that progress just halts with jimmy leaving. without stopping to think about wether or not it’d be a good idea to continue under the name, he hires a quick replacement and soldiers on.. what will happen to these new songs now? is he just going to have mike mimic the drum parts jimmy created?? that seems cheap, and disingenuine? but if not, then what the hell does he do to those songs? a lot of that new material was driven by the drum parts.. so it seems like he’s in a lose lose situation. so new drummer.. new bassist, new whatevers.. why not just start a new band, and start fresh? seriously why does he need to keep the SP name?
we can argue and argue and argue about this all year. but in no way am i convinced he single handedly wrote some of the finest SP material. and no, we don’t have anything from it’s current incarnation that can help conclude that he really is the full fledge SMASHING PUMPKINS, that demarcates the legacy and important contributions of the original members. but with the way things have been going on in the past two years, and knowing how he sounds when he does things by himself (solo project), i can’t imagine it’s going to turn out sounding like genuine SP. and the beauty in this is that those who feel that just him alone REALLY is SP, you really can’t argue that either.
so to use the logic you people have been using, which in my mind is ludicrous, if he by himself is really all that is needed for SP, would you consider TFE a smashing pumpkins album? and don’t give me this ‘he’s in a different frame of mindset here, not the pumpkins mindset!’ crap. he’s really not as versatile a songwriter as a lot of you like to make him out to be.
@Adam
He IS as versatile a songwriter as this.
Your point is totally subjective. I am a drummer. I think it is possible to replace Jimmy. You’re taking this way too seriously man. It’s not your choice. Let the people who believe believe.
I don’t KNOW that it will sound like SP, but the recent songs have suggested to me that its going in that direction, as well as the comment he made about going back to the classic pumpkins sound. I feel it’s a lot less of a crime to be positive and excited about something that you’re not sure about than it is to be blatantly negative about it.
My confidence stems on the songs I have already heard, that are supposedly the lesser songs. Also from the supposed dedication to a huge project that one would have to feel very inspired and determined to embark on. Plus the comment about the pumpkins returning to their roots. Most of it lies in the music I’ve already heard though, there were some very good SP sounding songs among the ‘lesser’ ones. I guess if you don’t like the new stuff at all and don’t think any of it sounds like SP then there’s nothing to argue about really. I think the new stuff is good and sounds like SP, and therefore that the album will follow and expand on that trend. You think the new stuff is bad and doesn’t sound like SP, and therefore that the album will not sound like SP and should not fall under the SP title. Nowhere to really go from there if that’s the case.
“you can’t mistake how important jimmy is to the sound of this band, throughout all of the different eras. ”
I think you’re forgetting about a great song called 1979, and a wonderful album by the name of Zeitgeist. They sounded a lot like the Pumpkins to me, maybe not to you though? I think that alone proves that Jimmy is NOT essential to the Pumpkins sound. Although again, if you think 1979 and Adore were shit and not SP material, no where to really argue from here.
With Zeitgeist I was trying to make the point that more SP style music was being made afterwords, including after Jimmy left. Basically saying that in the Zeitgeist period with Jimmy, the album was less SP sounding then the new songs without Jimmy, trying to prove that Jimmy is not required for the SP sound. Obviously it’s a matter of opinion and if you think that all the new post-jimmy material is shit and sounds nothing like SP then there’s nowhere to go from here, again. Also a matter of opinion that the Zeitgeist album sounded like older SP material, I believe it was missing key elements of the SP sound that the new songs have, both from before and after Jimmy left. You obviously don’t.
I have no clue whats going to happen to the drum tracks, I guess we’ll find out come album time. What I do know is that Byrne’s drumming doesn’t bother me and I don’t feel it takes away from the main SP sound. He is keeping the SP name because the music being written is still under the SP spectrum. If you don’t see it like that, then again its a matter of opinion and there’s no where to go from here.
As for the single album, he wasn’t writing as the Smashing Pumpkins, he was trying to deliberately distance himself from that sound. Hes even said that in interviews ( don’t want to dig for it right now).
I really would like to hear whether you liked 1979 and Adore though, the non-Jimmy material. Considering you’ve already suggested that James’ and D’arcy’s contributions were negligible (“sure, billy wrote a lot of James’ and D’arcy’s parts, and played them, but how many of jimmy’s parts did BC write and play? zero”), I’m sure we could agree that the grand majority of that music was Billy’s creation alone. Kind of like now, with recording the new album. Since you consider Jimmy to be essential to the SP sound, I expect your answer to be that you hated this materal, or that at the very least it was not real SP material.
If I’ve missed anything let me know, pretty sure I got everything though.
gauphil what does you being a drummer have anything to do with this?
In my 4th paragraph I meant Adore, not Zeitgeist. Just to clear up any possible confusion.
“in no way am i convinced he single handedly wrote some of the finest SP material.”
Oh. Well… Okay, then. I think this is where the discussion ends.
how can the pumpkins return to their roots without ANY of the root players?
Also thanks for arguing the point of the solo album with the point i told you not to argue with it about.
1979? jimmy still drummed on it. his drum set is pretty poignant on that tune. simple for a jimmy part? of course, but you can’t dismiss it. very few drummers with his technical ability would have just sat back and let the other elements of the song take over, and his simple beat still help push that song.
Adore? I thought it was a terrific record, however there were points that felt stale, largely due to the lack of musical dynamics, which jimmy helped push. go back to billy’s 2005 confessions where he talks a great deal about this, and how he used jimmy a lot as a crutch for his songwriting. he struggled with making adore, because a huge asset to his songwriting was gone. Songs like To Sheila and Shame, are perfect. very very rare cases where they were able to dig into the pumpkins sound without all 4 members there. (shame was recorded live with james and darcy, and a drum machine, and imo is the most pumpkins sounding song on the record) but also remember, that record was recorded coming off of 5-6 straight years of constant writing, touring and playing. the spirit of the band was going to eventually seep into that project at some point. it’s been way to long now for anything like that to happen, without it sounding stale.
other songs on adore? i just remember thinking, when arising happened, and actually getting to hear jimmy play on said songs, like WOW.. THAT’S how that song is supposed to sound (see pug, tear, ava adore as some great examples). heck his drumming on the recent crestfallens helped me finally realize how great that song is. that was a song that could have used some dynamic push, especially towards the end when BC is constantly repeating who am i.. instead we get that generic electro beat pulsating underneath.
the band, in it’s heyday recorded in a wide variety of variations. sometimes just billy and jimmy, sometime billy james, and darcy, sometimes billy and james, sometimes james and jimmy, etc etc etc. but in those instances two or more of the members were present, as were all their creative energies. (also, i did not dismiss james and darcy’s contributions, just stated that billy wrote a lot of their parts, but not ALL). there was also this dynamic tension within the relationships that helped create some incredibly tense and heartfelt music. non of those elements, that i feel STRONGLY contributed to Billy’s songwriting as a ‘smashing pumpkin’ exist anymore. everything almost seems too easy and he’s surrounded himself with people who will let him get away with whatever the fuck he wants. so what’s that going to end up being like? well just another BC solo record, really.
and it’s all a flip side of what BC said when SP was in it’s heyday. him saying he was 25% of SP. that the 4 people in the band, for whatever odd cosmic reason, created this magical unity he called the smashing pumpkins. and that if any single member were to leave, it’d be a wheel off the cart and he’d just go solo, cause there’d be no point in continuing. jimmy has also said this several times. (don’t have exact quotes, like you i don’t feel like looking them up). and now? oh i was SP this whole time. it’s all me. SP is a concept that is more important than the people in the band. I mean can;t you people at least admit we are dealing with a man here that is pretty full of shit?
also smiling did you read my point about how i feel zeitgeist is pretty standard fare pumpkins and my musical examples for explaining so?
“can;t you people at least admit we are dealing with a man here that is pretty full of shit?”
I sure can, Adam!
“1979? jimmy still drummed on it. his drum set is pretty poignant on that tune. simple for a jimmy part? of course, but you can’t dismiss it. very few drummers with his technical ability would have just sat back and let the other elements of the song take over, and his simple beat still help push that song.”
You must have pulled something coming up with that one.
hey drbenway i’d like you to describe to me how BC single handedly wrote the following songs:
Soma
Mayonaise
I Am One
Superchrist (he must have worked hard on writing this largely drum based track!)
Silverfuck (ditto)
Tonight Tonight
Rhino
Jellybelly
Geek USA (I’d like to know how he came up with such a brilliant drum part to this song that ultimately sealed the deal on this being one of the most legendary barn burning, psych rockers in all of the SP catalogue)
Stand Inside Your Love (how did he write such a great drum part that really brought back that ‘ol SP sound and energy that was missing from Adore?)
Zero (I’d really like to know how he approached writing Jame’s solo here)
Muzzle
Porcelina
Rocket
TTEOR
Siva
Drown
Hummer
United States
Stumbleine (I thought I’d throw you a freebie).
i’d make a longer list but this will be a good start.
oh wait never mind. i just realized are all right.
ok move along now. sorry i was wrong.
you are all right that is, correction.
Hi Adam,
It seems clear to me that the Smashing Pumpkins involved Billy coming to band practice with an idea for a song. Then the band jammed. And jammed some more, found the emotional core of the song, worked it, worked it and then reworked it, and then recorded it. Along the way you have a myriad of internal conflicts in the band, but the overall M.O of the band was to dedicate themselves to the music they created together. There were times over all the records when this wasn’t working, because of the internal conflicts in the band. People like to rag on James and Darcy now, whether it be for a perceived lack of technical ability early on in the Pumpkins discography, or whether they were as dedicated as Billy or Jimmy, or how much they “really” contributed to the bands sound, but this is neither here nor there and amounts either to hearsay or Billy’s retrospective view of the bands history. What makes the Smashing Pumpkins special? Those four original members in a room? Not necessarily, I think it was the dedication they had to the music, and when that waned, the quality of their output waned. By the time Adore rolls around it doesn’t seem like they were an intact band, the pressures of the name of the band, the height of MCIS and the tragedy that came with it all served to destroy the band as they were prior to the release of MCIS. But this all amounts to a reductive mythologizing of the band. Seriously, you want to make arguments about “Who” the Pumpkins are, were, could be? Whether Stumbeline counts as a Pumpkins song, or what constitutes a Pumpkins song? Fucking redundant. Billy was the primary songwriter and his interaction with the original members produced some timeless records, all of varying quality song for song, album for album. Rather than dredging up this dead topic about “Who” the Pumpkins are, or whether Billy can use the name which is not helpful and is also very shortsighted, why don’t we take a look at what made those records great?
Jimmy said that it was Billy’s right to carry on using the name, and the fact is that he has continued to use it is something you have to accept in good faith, and I think that he has proven over his career that you can have faith in him if you give him the time and space to do what he does best. The recurring theme throughout the Smashing Pumpkins has been Billy as primary songwriter and his interaction with the musicians in the room who are dedicated to making Smashing Pumpkins music. The key here is Billy’s interaction with musicians who want to be there, musicians are down with the Mighty SP. For Billy, and I assume for a lot of us, the Smashing Pumpkins music is hard to pin down and describe, but I for one am excited that he has decided to try and find that ol’ SP heart again, and I don’t think that we can judge him for that, and all we can do is wait to see where he goes with it.
Ugh, I can’t argue everything again.
I argued the solo point because I still thought it was relevant, as billy himself acknowledged he was trying to distance himself from SP.
You were saying that you could accept the other two leaving, but that Jimmy is essential to the SP sound. I’m saying obviously not, because he was not present for Adore. Sure the other two made some contributions, but surely not enough to draw the line between SP sound/not SP sound. Saying that it was 5 years of playing and in the studio, on a roll, sure. But that’s suggesting that Jimmy was not essential to SP back then, and only is when Billy can’t write to his full ability. So basically if Billy were able to get back to writing as well as before, then you would accept them as SP? I guess we’ll have to wait for Teargarden to find that out, and even then opinions will vary. I understand the points you were making about how Jimmy could have made the album more dynamic (I don’t agree, but see what you’re saying), but it still seemed like you were leaning towards the Adore material being
‘real SP’.
I guess it really comes down to Teargarden by Kaleidyscope. If it’s amazing then you and me get to be stoked and go to kickass concerts and high five and be best friends forever. If it’s shit then I’ll be really disappointed and you get to rub it in my face and say you were right all along.
Really it’s a win-win for you haha.
I’m done arguing; I’ll wait for the album.
hey i didnt bring up the stumbleine point, you all did when you decided to try and find something to grasp onto in your arguement. you guys began this fucking redundancy.
and jesus fuck smiling politely did you read a damn thing about what I said? or did you just select what you wanted to read and small points you thought you could make an argument on? did you not catch the part where I said Jimmy could have been essential to Adore, and how i didn;t realize how great a LOT of those songs were til i heard him drumming on them live? NO WHERE DO I SUGGEST JC WAS NOT ESSENTIAL BACK THEN. you’re putting words in my mouth and thoughts in my head for the sake bettering your argument.
but regardless i was wrong. i now realize that this will be the most magical smashing pumpkins record ever made. hail pumpkins! now lets all unite and go google billy corgans name, and post under every single fucking negative article that is written about him! (And there’s a LOT!! we’ve got lots of work to do!!)
:)
@ Adam, what I’m trying to explain with my poor english is that as a drummer, I know it’s totally possible to fill for someone. It’s actually a replaceable instrument, as long as you have a great person to do it. I would have actually loved to hear more rock songs performed in studio with Matt Walker at the time. TEITBITE’s drumming was comparable to 1979 in the sense that with all the electronic rythmics, the drums had to be a bit simple.
Anyway what you have to understand Adam is that when a drummer finds drum parts on someone else’s song, he does not “write the song” along with the songwriter. That’s not how it works. Jimmy’s job on songs like Geek or Soma or all the others you listed is arranging drums on a song by Billy or Billy/James in the case of Soma(Even though in “If all goes wrong Billy tells how small James’ contribution was in the writing process of Soma and Mayo).
This is how it works in terms of splitting the incomes of a band. And it’s written in all your cd cases: Written by Billy Corgan
Drums by Jimmy Chamberlin. But not written by him.
So Jimmy: amazing drummer. But not a songwriter. Actually Billy said Zeitgeist was the album to which Jimmy participated the most in terms of arranging songs and that’s the album you like the less, so….
I love Jimmy, I started playing drums mostly because of him. But he had done all he had to do in terms of experimenting his drums styling with SP. A new drummer could bring more than you think. I don’t think we want the new stuff to sound exactly like the old stuff, we just want to have the SP feel. Billy alone can and surely will bring that.
By the way, your comparisons of all the songs on Adore with specific older songs is really simplist and not true at all in my opinion. You could do that with any 7th album of any band if you want. Oh and Starz is actually one of the most original drumming from Jimmy with SP ever.
I’m sure you are a cool person but right now you’re obviously trying to put some ill-feeling around… why else would you care so much? It’s life. In 5 years we will think of Jimmy has “past” and everybody will probably love Mike, etc… and it goes on and on. And Billy will always remain that of a great, versatile songwriter. The best ever in my opinion. He’s proven it more than enough in the past, so I think he earned my trust.
Peace
Oh and Adam, it’s possible to trust and care that much about a band as we do and not be a douche or a freak that’s spending all his time worshipping the man.
Our trust had been earned, can ya understand?
@adam – even though I don’t believe you really are very cynical towards corgan as your last paragraph shows, I think your beng mostly sarcastic.
Billy is uncommon and is never going to do the common thing. He’s gong to get criticized a lot, change his mind a lot, his visions will change. I think I grew onto the pumpkins and latched on because my best friend/business partner is a lot like him. Nobody understands him and his ideas/beliefs change or continue to expand everyday. Escpecially since they are both perfectionists. My friends thoughts are all over the place and he is also christian and tries to always do the right thing. He’s dropped almost all his friends except me, since I am the only one who tries/can understand him and will work with him. Excellent with family though and amazing core values. The point here is, hardly anyone is going to understand or agree with Billy just like my best friend. He’s not exactly the smartest guy or the wisest, but has the mentality Billy has (in my many year opinion), just a different thinker and an expert in his way of thinking. Outisde of who is closest to these people, the others will not fully understand and when he comes out and explains things, we won’t always know the wisdom behind it that these crazy people came out with, wether the wisdom behind the ideas are fact or simply fabricated. Just have to respect them and let them do what they do. I probably sound a bit crazy too, I might be, but i believe this is how these men are and the way they do things will never be fully excepted. Smart people, they aren’t ignorant in what they do and realize most nobody will understand either. I believe Billy has become insanely complicated in his way of thinking over the years, like my friend, and we can only be objective (obviosly) to his work.
When it seems nobody in the media respects Billy, and in most cases how can then from what I described above, we ARE here to do that even though we won’t know the wisdom behind the ideas or just have glimpse. Or if that makes us sheep, then the only fanatics should be the ones closest to him, such as me to my best friend, and the rest simply fans of the music if we enjoy it and not try to solve Billy’s business/personal life.
and business/personal life would include the band name, yet it still is proper to argue it subjectively, but all of us, including myself, are crossing the border into subjectivity and taking it personally.
*….”proper to argue it objectively…”
@Cagle: When I mentioned “fans” only wanting to hear 1979 I meant it in regards to those fans who stopped listening after MCIS and showed up thinking the 20th anniversary shows were going to be nostalgia fests. I would’ve loved to have heard any or all of the songs you listed and I could add 3 dozen more. Home, Vanity, Sacred + Profane, Snail, Here Is No Why. Hell, they could do a completely different show every night for a week and there’d still be stuff that was left out. That’s the problem though, the Pumpkins have a RIDICULOUS amount of material in their back catalogue.
I’d still argue that the majority of people attending those shows were thinking more along the lines of hearing all the singles. Spreading them out over 2 days is what pissed them off. Case in point: At the one NY show when they followed up Bullet (which had everyone on their feet for one of the few times that night) with BODIES, everyone sat the fuck down. How the hell can you sit during Bodies? Brains just switch off the second they don’t recognize something. Doesn’t matter that the song blasted the fucking roof off and it’s from the album they all supposedly love. It wasn’t a single, so their asses were back in that seat in a flash. Or maybe the song just knocked them right on their ass? I’m gonna go with that:)
What it comes down to is that there was no real way of pleasing everyone short of actually doing an old song night and a new song night. Assuming the word even got out, which it clearly didn’t in regards to the Black Sunshine/White Crosses being two totally different shows.
@minbets4k: Hey, I understand your point about Corgan being uncommon completely 110% and I am sure we understand it better than some. I think you described his personality perfectly.
I personally love this new “revolving member” policy. Reminds me of Steely Dan. They used to bring in different musicians for literally every instrument on every song. The reasoning behind it? Every artist is unique, and hence what they bring to the table is also unique. One of the biggest problems with recent Pumpkins material has been that there were literally only 2 creative forces (many times just one). No point/counter point. No editing. You bring in other skilled musicians, respect their input, and allow them to do their thing, you’re music’s going to benefit (same goes for all art). Hell, Queens of the Stone Age has been doing this for over a decade (including the Desert Sessions), and it’s done nothing if keep them consistently fresh on every release.
This is a good thing. Yes, we all miss D’arcy/James/Jimmy, but this is a good thing. I’m as excited as a fan right now as I’ve been in the last 15 years. Since Mellon Collie came out really.
Plus, maybe with all the pressure of “making hits” lifted off his shoulders, we’re going to get the “art rock” back that’s been missing from Corgan since Adore. The two b-sides from Zeitgeist, “Stellar” and “Death From Above,” I think show that he clearly hasn’t lost that avant streak– he’s just been obsessed with writing the next rock hit. 44-songs with no label input? We’re going to be getting some crazy shit. I want mellotrons, fuzz-guitars, drum-machines, ginormous analogue synths, prog-metal, the whole shebang– and we finally have a chance to get that (after waiting 15 years).
@ joel I do agree with you. QOTSA is a good exemple. If they actually had a real good songwriter like Billy, they would be awesome.
Now they’re just good and their dynamic seems to be “working”.
Evidently Adam doesn’t know what a song is. I wish I had known that from the outset. I could have saved him loads of time.
@gauphil
I have to hand it to you, you seem to be the only one in this thread who has presented an argument with any merit..
Now, I too am a musician. I play guitar, piano, bass and drums. I just graduated with my masters in composition this past spring. From my point of view, as a writer and a player, and as someone who has worked with ton of musicians, I know I’m always writing with certain players in mind.
For example, if I’m writing a chart that is jazz based, I know just exactly what drummer i’m looking for (his name is paul). If I’m writing an rock chart that needs some bombast, but with a touch of light dynamic in certain section, i have a drummer for that (his name is ed). If i’m writing an avant guarde chart, and i need some extremely out there, free improvisation, i go to this guy named nick. they are all incredibly different players, and they all bring something unique to the table that help propel the chart i am trying to write. that is true communicative, inspired musicianship, and neither one is at all replaceable.
that’s jimmy chamberlin. when a pumpkins song is written, he is the ultimate drummer. he is the guy to go to that can make, and has proven over and over again in the past 20 years, that can make a pumpkins song HAPPEN. He is NOT replaceable. I can’t picture any OTHER drummer playing songs like geek usa, i am one, tonight tonight, set the ray to jerry, superchrist, etc etc etc. And I know, given past interviews, that Billy Corgan has written PLENTY of smashing pumpkins songs this way, with jimmy chamberlin in mind. For example, a quote from Jimmy, “Stand Inside Your Love was written with me in mind. That’s not a song that would have happened on Adore.” This is from the May 2000 modern drummer issue.
The way he’s approached his denial in how the pumpkins work, as him as the sole contributor, is INSULTING to the work jimmy put forth. him hiring a drummer, who is largely amateur in his playing, is insulting to the work jimmy did for this band.
And if you have the kind of attitude that drummers are ultimately replaceable, then you are going to have a hard time finding work. a drummer who thinks he can just phone in a performance, well those types of musicians are a dime a dozen.. if you feel you can’t bring anything unique to the table, you are not worth hiring.
but interesting view point gauphil. thank you! the rest of you need to work on your skills at rationalizing, especially if you are goin out into the internet world attempting to refute every single piece of negative criticism billy gets.
@Adam
Well thank you. Even though we disagree on actual SP I know you’re an intelligent person and you too are able to make a point.
I think we all agree that the music will be the most important. And I think we all are anxious somehow to hear what’s to come!
Oh while I think about it, I just want to say….
The reason why I am happy Billy continues under the name(SP) is that I strongly believe in my heart that the music will be better this way. Better for me, for my taste. Even though the other original members aren’t there anymore, I strongly believe if the next album is under the label “The Smashing Pumpkins”, it’s going to be better than a solo album or something.
I call it a “muse”. The name represents so much to Billy, I believe it’s his muse.
And in the end it’s just a name. I don’t see it as any harm to the past and the legacy of “Smashing Pumpkins”.
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